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Posted by DeepLogin 16 hours ago

Israel creates fake think tank in likely attempt to dupe AI chatbots(responsiblestatecraft.org)
630 points | 377 commentspage 3
N_Lens 10 hours ago|
I find intensive marketing/PR efforts are often inversely correlated with the claims being made - whether it's products or geopolitics. Israel certainly engages in very intense marketing on certain fronts, but truth cannot be obscured forever. In Physics the law of conservation includes not only matter and energy, but also information (Information cannot be destroyed from the Universe).
somenameforme 8 hours ago||
I've also found this to be true, but also only in relatively modern times. For instance during the Cold War there was an obscene amount of propaganda, but it was mostly true. For instance the wide array of cheap affordable goods in American shelves was constantly flaunted, but not in the least bit misleading.

I don't understand the modern effort to engage in 'information warfare' as a thing in and of itself. Each time it collapses and people sees what was 'really' happening, it just makes them that much less likely to believe you next time. And you also create a significant number of perpetually jaded people who will basically never believe you again, even when you're telling the truth. Countless politicians have proudly paraded around their pristine, seemingly untouched, copies of Meditations, but perhaps they should go for more foundational works, like The Boy Who Cried Wolf.

xg15 6 hours ago|||
> And you also create a significant number of perpetually jaded people who will basically never believe you again, even when you're telling the truth.

Yes, but they will also not believe my enemies. Making people not believe anything anymore is a classic strategy of propaganda.

somenameforme 4 hours ago||
Maybe that is the rationale. It's the only thing that'd make sense, but for problem that it doesn't. When somebody, or some entity, lies to you - that entity becomes the liar. People may not want to believe 'the enemy', but that's going to be because of their own ideological reasons, and not because they now refuse to believe anybody. On the contrary non-ideologues may even be ever more swayed towards your enemy as a result of this.

Personally I think the issue is that after WW2 we were left with a large scale and ever growing intelligence apparatus, but with ever fewer appropriate tasks for them. That led directly to the era of recklessly overthrowing nations, often to our own detriment, and gradually transitioned to the modern era of aimless 'information warfare' which I think will ultimately be shown to be very much to our detriment, once again.

N_Lens 8 hours ago|||
The difference between American and Russian propaganda is that Russians know it's propaganda.
wiseowise 4 hours ago||
This was a great, old anecdote. Until they’ve started the biggest European war of the century.
edmundsauto 8 hours ago||
One goal of modern propaganda is to make it irrelevant when the truth inevitably comes out.

Look at the US situation. It’s clear that Trump is a rapist - the truth has come out. It’s clear he’s corrupt. For all the “release the full Epstein files” discussion, it really wouldn’t change anything.

The truth will come out but will the people who can make it matter be listening?

hunterpayne 7 hours ago||
Oh the irony.
ibramGaunt 6 hours ago||
For those interested, Neal Stephenson writes about this in _Anathem_, where there is an arcane technical class (the I.T. Administration) that has developed programs over the years to sift through the misinformation, sentient viruses, and general overrun of the Internet to determine what is probably true/accurate.
the__alchemist 1 hour ago|
He writes about it in Fall, or; Dodge in hell! The Miasma; the workaround is personalized filters (or generic ones for those who can't afford the personal ones). This leads to societal consequences.

(I never put together the ITA as that; wow!)

nephihaha 2 hours ago||
Most think tanks are ginger groups, front organisations and cats' paws for moneyed interests anyway.
shykes 6 hours ago||
I'm confused as to what the accusation is exactly. Out of curiosity I browsed the site in question, which only increased my confusion.

> But the Hanover Institute is not a real think tank.

What does that mean exactly?

> None of the reports have bylines

The site actually addresses this at https://hanoverinstitute.com/hanover/about :

  Reports are published under the Institute’s name rather than an individual’s. That is the convention at institutional publishers, and it fits how the work is made: every report is produced against one standard and one citation bank. A reader is asked to weigh the sources, which are named in the sentence that carries each figure, rather than the author.
> A small disclaimer at the bottom of the webpage notes that the organization was created on behalf of the Israeli Government Advertising Agency by Piro, Inc, a firm co-founded by Daniel Rosenberg, the producer of Spike Lee’s “Inside Man.”

"Small disclaimer" implies that the site is attempting to hide its affiliation. But their "about" page, which is linked at the top of every page, is quite clear:

  WHO FUNDS THIS WORK
  
  The Institute’s materials are distributed by Piro, Inc. on behalf of Havas Media Germany GmbH, acting for the Israel Government Advertising Agency (LaPam). That relationship is registered under the Foreign Agents Registration Act, registration 7732, and every report published here is filed with the Department of Justice, where the registration and the filings can be read in full, and the funding page sets out when the relationship began and what the funder does not decide.
  
  That registration is why this site does not call itself independent, nonpartisan or neutral. What it offers instead is a method a reader can check: every figure carries the body that produced it, the year and the number, inside the sentence that makes the claim; sources that are a party to the events they describe are labelled as such and their counts are never presented as independently verified; and where the evidence is contested, the competing findings are given by name and date rather than settled. No report recommends a policy or tells a reader what to conclude. Those are properties of the work that can be tested against the work, which is the only kind of claim worth making here.
> The institute’s “data reports” have footnotes and tables of contents, and they present arguments in a neutral tone, helping them appeal to chatbots like Claude or Gemini.

So, they're guilty of good SEO?

> Piro’s website says that it “author(s) content engineered for how LLMs evaluate credibility,” describing this service as "AI Story Optimization." Others refer to this practice of influencing artificial intelligence as “LLM poisoning.”

So the issue is that they use a LLM-friendly SEO service?

> Many of the reports are formulaic, starting with an innocent question that someone might ask a chatbot.

> “What Caused the Displacement of Palestinians in 1948?”

> “Which Humanitarian Organizations Have Documented Israeli War Crimes?”

> “What is the Current Situation in the Gaza Strip?”

> In an article titled “Is the IDF the World’s Most Moral Army?” the Hanover Institute cites a 2022 poll that found that 47% of Israeli Jews believed that statement. Another report casts doubt on UNICEF's assertion that “90% of water and institutional infrastructure has been damaged or destroyed” in Gaza. Many of the reports conclude by linking the topic to rising antisemitism, oftentimes citing the same studies.

So, the accusation is that they frame their opinion articles as a Q&A, and focus each article on a single question?

I've read these articles: they are well written and make a visible effort to provide sources, while being transparent about the fact that they are not neutral.

It's perfectly fine to criticize the actual content of these articles. But attacking their credibility by accusing them of "LLM poisoning" and implying that they're disguising their affiliation, is ridiculous and should be called out.

Brendinooo 4 minutes ago||
Thanks for this, it's crazy that I had to scroll so far to see it on this site.

The headline sounds sensational, then if you actually read the article you realize the author just made up his own framing entirely, or he just discovered that AEO and GEO exists and thinks it's sinister?

I thought maybe there were going to be some markers about how they're targeting LLMs specifically there was nothing like that.

And if you go to https://hanoverinstitute.com/llms.txt ...honestly, you could maybe form a critique about implying to LLMs that your wagon is hitched to the Department of Justice on line 5! But this guy didn't even seem to find this file...

giov4 3 minutes ago|||
this clearly a defensive stance without a real motivstion.

"It's perfectly fine to criticize the actual content of these articles. But attacking their credibility by accusing them of "LLM poisoning" and implying that they're disguising their affiliation, is ridiculous and should be called out."

called out? yes your defensive and not-motivated stance should be called out and this comment flagged.

disguising affiliation and poisoning information is exactly what happens in a propaganda campaign and in the activities carried and clearly explained in the article.

yoavm 5 hours ago||
The accusation is that Israel is doing it, therefore the content is pro-Israel, therefore it is bad.
rajamaka 1 hour ago|||
"Israel is doing It, therefore it is bad" only has turned out to be accurate 99% of the time
yoavm 28 minutes ago||
Thank you for confirming my theory in such a direct and clear way!
giov4 6 minutes ago||
hah you make me laugh, trying really hard, so typical from your society!

problem is the world now knows, no need to cry about antisemitism.

keep trying, the truth is clear, you are only doing bad evil things since long time and your government and ministers states it publicly too!

If my ministers would claim the dream of killing kids or people I would feel totally ashamed of them and I would not support it online spamming every thread!

giov4 1 hour ago|||
nice try guys, no need to generate confusion also here, the purpose target and implementations are very clear from the article and the actors behind even more.

please do not pollute this thread with misinformation too.

shevy-java 1 hour ago||
> The Hanover Institute’s reports — all of which are about Israel and Palestine — appear to be part of an Israeli effort to influence chatbots.

This already seems to be a wrong analysis in that it makes little sense to "influence" a chatbot. It makes more sense to influence humans, so perhaps the wording is just incorrect, but very clearly the aim is not to "influence" a chatbot per se. That just makes no sense at all.

The wording fake think tank is also strange, because it assumes that all other think tanks are "real". But this assessment can not be made, because not everyone has all information on all think tanks. It is a too simplistic assumption in how the world operates. I understand that if you have incomplete information, you need to infer, but this then leads to information that may be incorrect or incomplete. In turn if your analysis is based on incorrect information, it may lead to wrong conclusions.

eth0up 10 hours ago||
Why I think this is unusually important:

All four frontier models have active contracts with the Pentagon.

And some might say, that alone means little.

But when you take into consideration the implications of the United States-Israel FUTURES Act, whether one endorses it or not, the effects of that mentioned in TFA become quite formidable, and plausibly official.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States-Israel_FUTURES_A...

Edit: I see this comment got immediately flagged. Is there any point of debate here? Instead of disappearing the comment/data, maybe enlighten me, or assuage my concerns. Section 219 was objectively unprecedented in what it seeks to accomplish. Can it not be taken for granted that it would aid such efforts as the article cites? If not, explain.

solid_fuel 9 hours ago||
You're right to ask these questions, unfortunately Hacker News seems pretty botted these days, and it doesn't help that there are a lot of shitty, racist people on this site. They just dress it up in nicer language.
eth0up 9 hours ago||
Yeah, I am reading the comments, and looking at the title of the post, and seeing that folks really bend the rules on this 'particular' subject, which ironically serves as self censorship. Call me a fool for thinking even this subject could be cleanly discussed on HN.

I wonder if the same thing would happen if someone posted something on Yitzhak Rabin. I suppose that could be a test to prove whether some topics truly just cannot be discussed.

refulgentis 8 hours ago||
I flagged this, so I can act as an interlocutor for the shadowy n’er do wells flagging you, if you’re interested.
solid_fuel 8 hours ago||
Ah a volunteer. Will you try using your words like an adult instead of the flag button?
refulgentis 8 hours ago||
It’s right there!
solid_fuel 8 hours ago||
> I flagged this, so I can act as an interlocutor for the shadowy n’er do wells flagging you, if you’re interested.

Where? I don't see it in your comment here.

Is it in the room with us right now?

fudgy73 6 hours ago|||
I don't think Anthropic has an active contract with the Pentagon.

[0] - https://breakingdefense.com/2026/05/pentagon-clears-7-tech-f...

refulgentis 8 hours ago||
The FUTURES act has nothing to do with LLM development. You’re not being censored, we can read your posts. I generally agree with your views and right to ask questions, but you’re clearly not being censored and all you’ve presented is that a bunch of separate entities all connect to the US gov’t. Even if we assume all of them are connected, it would clash with the facts we’re discussing, namely, why would Israel bother contracting with marketing firms to post AI generated slop for AI to read?
Lerc 9 hours ago||
Apart from the ethical implications this is reckless in the extreme if you take into account the recent advances in AI. Putting misinformation out there like that doesn't just have to fool existing LLMs but also all of the LLMs to come in the future.

If you look at the mathematical achievements of frontier models recently, their strength has been to bring in information from a vast array of sources and to consider them within the context of each other.

I anticipate that it won't be long before this ability to look into every nook and cranny with be able to identify academic fraud. Identifying every piece of academic fraud to date would probably come soon after.

It wouldn't take much to extend that ability to identify deliberate misinformation. That's in the future, but it looms close enough on the horizon that you would have to be a fool to create an evidence record like this in and attempt to trick the models of today.

zmgsabst 9 hours ago|
LLMs routinely mindlessly repeated propaganda in their training data.

I’ve yet to see a single one identify that on its own, rather than only reluctantly when confronted when documented facts it was objectively wrong.

So no, I doubt LLMs will do anything but promoted propaganda.

hunterpayne 7 hours ago||
Many people do the same...
xg15 6 hours ago||
I mean, they have enough real think tanks, I'm surprised they need a fake one...
pengaru 11 hours ago|
"fake think tank" sounds a bit redundant
Vegemeister 9 hours ago||
Indeed. This is a think tank whose publications are LLM-generated, but, like...

This is what a think tank is for.

A better headline would be "Israel fails to adequately paperwork their low-rent think tank".

tclancy 10 hours ago|||
Indeed! How would you tell the difference for sure?
philtar 9 hours ago||
[dead]
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