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Posted by Ariarule 2 days ago

I like 'em thick: an apology to my English teachers(www.experimental-history.com)
492 points | 235 commentspage 5
buredoranna 7 hours ago|

  > The slop-acalypse that so many of us fear,
  > when people will stop looking at anything
  > made by humans and only look at things made
  > by machines—why hasn’t that happened yet?
I contend people will be willing, even eager, to pay a premium for content provably produced by humans.

Are you an artist? A woodworker? Metalsmith? ... start recording your work and post it to youtube. I guarantee people will be willing to pay extra for the thing you built (I certainly would).

(edit: formatting)

idontwantthis 7 hours ago||
I really enjoyed reading this and I've been thinking along similar lines when I imagine viable careers of the future. No one will care if code is "thick" but why would anyone buy a novel written by AI? What does the reader get out of it? It seems like the humanities might be the most stable career path available.
Avicebron 5 hours ago||
Haha and suddenly we'll have the pivot where all the software engineers try their hand at being writers. I can already see glimpses of it here wirh articles like this.

Code can be thick, but it's really the value and conscientiousness of the thing being created that will be judged as "thick".

One hope I have when the wave of AI acceleration comes smashing down to reality is that it will force people into being deliberate, measured, and "thick" with their designs, approaches, attitudes, etc.

apsurd 7 hours ago||
i’m working on a little ios widget display currently. even a tiny little one view box has hundreds of nuanced design and structure decisions behind it.

That reasoning is the thickness not the amount of code that powers it though they are somewhat interrelated.

colinrand 6 hours ago||
Omg. this is the best word ever: poptimism
phainopepla2 3 hours ago|
It comes from a big struggle in the world of music criticism and appreciation, specifically as a reaction to "rockism".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockism_and_poptimism

There were issues with rockism, but I still think the wrong side won that fight.

pranav_tech26 6 hours ago||
Verbose docs and over-engineered specs always crash and burn. Clear, concise writing is just clean code with fewer bugs.
dredmorbius 5 hours ago|
Complexity should be relative to the material covered.

Verbosity without substance is tiresome. But so is hand-waving and vagueness over complex topics (the hallmark of conspiracy theorists and absolutist fundamentalists).

Providing a rich exposition of a rich topic is indeed a divine sort of thickness.

pranav_tech26 2 hours ago||
Spot on. Verbosity for the sake of it sucks, but vague docs on complex systems are even worse. Balance is everything—depth where it actually matters.
mmooss 7 hours ago||
By rejecting postmodernism and even the Enlightenment (due to the overwhelming reactionary messaging) most people have unilaterally disarmed themselves, or so I hypothesize. It's hard to talk about these things in any specific, evidence-based way, but here is the idea:

Without the ultimate postmodern truth that there is none, that deep skepticism of power especially and always of oneself, how do people decide what to embrace? Whatever is effectively sold to them, no questions asked. There isn't an instinctive worry about but an almost survival-level embrace of mass messaging - the way is to be safe in the crowd, not to doubt it or to worry about its power in society and its effect on you.

And without believing in the Enlightenment vision of the transformative power of our minds to make a better humanity, expressed especially in art as the pinnacle of human expression and acheivement, art is ruled out and actually threatens your worldview (and that reactionary messaging) of powerlessness and survival.

andrepd 2 hours ago||
> Guys who work in bike shops like to joke about bicycle-shaped objects—sure, that mass-produced hunk of metal and plastic has a seat, pedals, wheels, and handlebars, but that doesn’t mean it’s a bike. When the materials are so cheap and the construction is so slapdash, it deserves another name entirely.

> This terminology comes in handy, because it turns out there are also movie-shaped objects and book-shaped objects, art-shaped objects and thought-shaped objects. Just because a series of pictures flickered across the screen and the credits followed, that doesn’t mean it was a movie. Just because it’s printed out and bound in cardboard, that doesn’t mean it’s a book. There is an additional essence that is necessary to turn something from the shape of a thing into the actual thing, and the difference between having and lacking that essence is the difference between a corpse and a person.

There's nothing more to be said. This right here is what slop enthusiasts will never get, because they equate thought with a thought-shaped object.

legacynl 7 hours ago||
Although I appreciate the article, what's the deal with calling depth thickness? Is it because it looks like the meme word 'thicc'?

> If you allow for the existence of secret treasures that can only be accessed with effort and analysis, then you empower the elitists and the snobs. “Buddy, don’t even talk to me until you’ve been in the cave!”

I don't agree with this statement. Being a snob and/or elitist means looking down upon others. If you appreciate these 'secret treasures' without being a dick about it, everybody wins.

EEBio 7 hours ago||
I imagine the word thickness represents the great number of (metaphorical) layers of a painting, since paintings are the reoccurring symbol to talk about art in this essay.
antonyt 7 hours ago|||
I don't think the author is claiming you HAVE to be a dick about it. But that the pursuit of "thickness" does in reality give ammunition to a lot of people who are inevitably dicks about it seems observably true to me.
mbauman 7 hours ago|||
> what's the deal with calling depth thickness

It's almost as though the author thought about and cared about the content and exact words he chose. "Thick or Treat" and "Thickening agents" and "Slim pickings" even immediately evoking imagery of a thin slop gruel in my own head.

By using an unexpected word I think I thought more critically about it, in fact. Had the author used depth I would've immediately had more superficial imagery in my own head.

joemi 5 hours ago||
I think the fact that "thick" can mean "dim-witted" is proof that the author did not in fact choose their words carefully.
jonnybgood 2 hours ago||
I think it's made obvious that "thick" can mean many different things. Personally, I've never heard "thick" to mean "dimwitted" or it ever used as such.
joemi 5 hours ago|||
"Thick" already has a meaning of "dimwitted" so it's a particularly strange choice of word in this context. Is this something this new use of "thick" as a synonym for "deep" something this author is trying to coin, or is this already an established meaning among younger generations?
imp0cat 3 hours ago||
As thick as the paint on the Lexus LS400. ;)
allturtles 5 hours ago|||
> Although I appreciate the article, what's the deal with calling depth thickness?

Possibly riffing on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thick_description?

dredmorbius 5 hours ago|||
Given the butt-emphasis, there's also a certain allusion to Sir Mix-a-Lot.
CocaKoala 7 hours ago||
I think I like the term "thickness" over "depth" here because thickness implies a sort of solidity, an ability to stand up to being held and examined, turned over and and handled. Depth can feel unapproachable (the ocean is pretty deep and it is famously challenging to explore) while something which has thickness intuitively feels like you can walk right up to it and try to learn something.

This doesn't hold for all things - I would, for example, describe a wine as having "depth" but probably not "thickness" because in the case of potables "thickness" also implies a particular sort of textural feel, but I do like the idea of a piece of art as being thick with meaning as opposed to deep. A book which is deep can be reread multiple times, but a book which has thickness just sounds like a book that can live on your bookshelf and be paged through year after year for decades, with not only the content to support it but also the sturdiness to hold up to the use.

pluralmonad 6 hours ago||
Also, depth does not necessarily mean substance. Holes in the ground have depth. I think thickness works well here.
TacticalCoder 5 hours ago||
> I always assumed that so-called “great” literature was a hoax, a punishment inflicted upon adolescents for the crime of being young.

It's mixed. It's both true and false.

There are a great many books out there, but there's also countless pointless turds.

Then something has to be said about your teacher forcing you to read a great book in a language that is not the author's native language. Some do translate well (Dostoevsky for example) but for many others it simply doesn't make any sense. A great book is not just a story: the writing itself is an art form and that cannot be translated.

Then many books are just bland, naive, with a ridiculously laughable "message" they try to pass.

The problem is a teacher shall force you to read either indistinctly. At least mine was.

I could be forced to read great literature just as I was forced to read the latest fart from whatever author was fancy in the city atm for his parents owned a bookstore.

Another way to see it is this: how many books (novel books) are there out there? Like, literally, how many? The number is gigantic. How many great novels are there?

If you were to pick one at random, which probability that you'd end up on a great one?

What's the probability your teacher will pick great ones?

In my case, the odds were basically as you'd expect: I remember very few of them because most didn't warrant being remembered.

janalsncm 3 hours ago|
I disagree with many of the points.

First, as a point of style it makes no sense for the author to have chosen “thick” rather than the more common adjective “deep”. They describe the same thing, and “deep” even works much better for the cave analogy which is central to the author’s argument.

Deep also has ties to game theory, where increasing depth introduces exponential complexity. The deeper you calculate in chess for example, the more likely you are to find emergent ideas and refutations. Thick is simply an odd choice.

Now to the analogy of literature to caves. It’s highly flawed: unfalsifiable, and its actual supporting evidence is easily refuted by existence of tradition. If you haven’t found the treasure in the cave, you just have to keep looking. It’s definitely there, right?

Further, I am not persuaded by the actual examples the author gave of “thick” art. The nonsense music written on the butt of a subject of a painting is an Easter egg. Ok, the painter doesn’t like secular music, but is there any deeper consideration of why a chromatic scale is fundamentally more sacred than a 13 note scale or a 120 note scale? It’s an anachronistic detail.

The example with Hamlet and ears is even worse. The author says “thin art has no answers, thick art does” then in the very next paragraph concludes no one knows if the recurring theme of ears in Hamlet means something or it’s just something Shakespeare felt like adding.

And this was my entire problem with finding “themes” in books. This exercise was often an exercise in finding patterns where there are none:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

Ok, Shakespeare had a thing with ears, so what? I’m sure you can find countless patterns, intentional and unintentional in all sorts of books. Who cares if they mean anything. Now please find three of these “themes” (the more obscure and irrelevant the better, because your teacher has probably already found the real ones) and sandwich them between an opening and a concluding paragraph for your five paragraph essay.

> This kind of quality can only be proven by longevity. Which answers another question I had when I was scowling in the back of English class: why do we have to spend so much time reading old stuff? And the answer is: this is the only stuff that we can be sure is any good. Great works of art, like successful genes, convince humans to keep passing them on. If something has survived for centuries, then there’s probably something to it. We’re not still brewing Bronze Age beer and we’re not still sailing Bronze Age ships, but we are still telling Bronze Age stories, and this warrants our attention.

The fact that the books on the library shelves this year are mostly the same as last year isn’t a statement about the quality of old books. It is a statement about library budgets. Same thing with museum inventories and English literature curriculums. Jane Eyre is going to feature prominently in AP Lit essays this year not because it is a good book (it was one of the worst things I have experienced) but because teachers know it, the library has it, and the curriculum is written already.

eapressoandcats 2 hours ago|
This comment is just truly bleak and I hope you find something artistic that you can enjoy the depth of.

The fact that some things are considered classics is not a mercenary logistical concern. Some movies are considered classics and this has nothing to do with library budgets. Standing the test of time indicates that it’s not just a product of the cultural trends of the time and speaks more universally.

janalsncm 1 hour ago||
If you think my comment is bleak you should read Jane Eyre. Then come back to my comment if you’d like to get cheered up. It is truly a miserable book.
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