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Posted by altmanaltman 3 hours ago

A Kantian Critique of "Sorry" by Justin Bieber(decodingvibes.com)
151 points | 61 comments
mwillis 1 hour ago|
This 3 minute song creates a fleeting portrait of a man, not necessarily Bieber, who we cannot know. The song captures the mindset of a character who, one might infer, cynically knows what he’s trying to do. It’s possible he has no interest in a heartfelt, meaningful apology. In fact, this character - who lives only within the song and the liminal world it creates - may be operating exactly to his own moral preference. We don’t know enough to say more. It’s like asking if a singer of “happy birthday” truly wishes their subject to be happy.

In short, you Kant analyze pop music with confidence.

mc32 1 hour ago|
Of course one cannot in all sincerity know. Today, and even yesteryear, are composed to entertain others, not oneself. They are seldom personal or about the singer, with exceptions like the well known songs by Carly Simon and others. In any event songs today are often written by others, passed around till they find a “home.”
TRiG_Ireland 4 minutes ago||
> We cannot attribute any moral judgment to Bieber as a human being; we can only answer the moral question as posed in the song.

As a semi-off-topic little rant, why do we always assume that pop singers are singing about themselves and their own experiences? Can a song, as a work of art, not have an independent existence, much as a novel may? Pop, rap, and maybe country songs are all now assumed to be about the artist themselves.

BubbleRings 3 hours ago||
Funny. Take a simple pop song about apology and make an academic treatise on what a heartfelt apology looks like.

On the other end of the spectrum would be to summarize it in the shortest form with the simplest words, instead of with many and multi-syllable words. How about this (not mine, I’ve heard this in addiction recovery rooms, where apologies and amends are often discussed):

In the sentence “I’m sorry I did x, but you did y”, the word “but” means “disregard the above.”

Waterluvian 2 hours ago||
I agree with the sentiment.

But,

Whenever I catch myself reaching for “but” I recognize it is because I need to feel heard. What I did was unacceptable. But I didn’t do it in a vacuum and I need my grievances to be recognized. My belief is that omitting the “but” phrase is an act of faith. You need to trust that the other party cares about your feelings and side of the issue, too. Accepting an apology is just as delicate an act as giving one.

“I’m sorry I hit you with the blue shell.”

“I appreciate you saying that. I know you were in last place and that must have felt awful. I don’t want that for you either.”

hmokiguess 2 hours ago|||
I find you can almost always replace “but” with “and” in situations like those and end up more heard by the other side.

I understand the urge to feel heard AND whenever we bring something that may contrast we risk the disagreement connotation that “but” carries to trigger the recipient’s defensive reaction (even if unconsciously)

galangalalgol 1 hour ago|||
Depending on the relationship involved, asking the person why they think I behaved as I did often helps. Sometimes the reason they think I did what I did is more correct than what I would have put after but or and. And sometimes the answer they give shows they are modeling my motivations completely incorrectly.
Waterluvian 1 hour ago|||
First rule of relationships: adhere to the first rule of improv!
shermantanktop 33 minutes ago|||
I had a coworker who talked all the time about their improv activities outside of work. They also dropped “yes, and” into business meetings with execs, and would then explain why.

They asked me if I thought it would be a fun team-building exercise to bring in their improv coach and do a class with a bunch of VPs and directors. I said no.

I understand the concept but sometimes people can be overzealous about their passions.

EDIT: I understand the concept and sometimes people can be overzealous about their passions.

Waterluvian 23 minutes ago||
What?! I think a 28 hour game of Twilight Imperium would be a great team destroying exercise.
CamperBob2 58 minutes ago|||
Always leave them wanting more?
Waterluvian 41 minutes ago||
Not only that, but avoid asking questions!
repeekad 2 hours ago|||
So, you don’t agree with the sentiment?.. /s
xrd 1 hour ago||
Bieber was clearly trying to use the word "butt" here; it just does not come across in a vocal and was obviously transcribed incorrectly.
stonyrubbish 51 minutes ago||
From a Hegelian perspective, the concept of the apology inherently is contradictory: for an apology before the act of harm has occurred is always "too early," yet an apology after the act has occurred is always, in some sense, "too late," ie, the harm has already been caused. We can see from this point that the apology is therefore never-on-time, always a spectre in the realm of human temporality. Also, I've never read Hegel (not that this disqualifies me from being a Hegelian.)
henrydark 2 hours ago||
Song also proves Bieber is a dualist

"cause I'm missing more than just your body"

What else does she have that he misses?

srveale 1 hour ago||
Bieber in this case refers to body as in "corps", the subject's collective professional or military associations. He laments the loss of power he enjoyed stemming from the subject's erstwhile allegiance.
SamBam 30 minutes ago||
It's a heartfelt apology to the UN, but, as the article says, too late.
andai 2 hours ago|||
Dank memes. She has dank memes on her phone.
tclancy 1 hour ago|||
You're not clocking it?
Sharlin 30 minutes ago||
Her money?
wj 2 hours ago||
That brought to mind this examination of Taylor Swift's Shake it Off:

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/taylor-swift-a-socratic-...

stillpointlab 1 hour ago|
The irony is, as I read the OP I thought it was very much in the style of McSweeneys and then there is this.

It is a pretty obvious humor device so I assume the ideas are independent. And the Socratic dialog framing adds another layer of humor since this is closer to a juxtaposition, lampooning both Swift's vapidity and Plato's writing style.

cyanmagenta 3 hours ago||
Justin Bieber is a utilitarian rather than Kantian. From a UChicago economics view, he is behaving rationally.
nmz 2 hours ago|
If utilitarianisms only interest is the consequence of the action and whether it resulted in a positive outlook. the consequence that we care about is "your body" and if "sorry" is uttered in time, then we can receive the reward, If in the relationship you say sorry and there is an expectation of all actions being forgiven, then, this is the ultimate get out of jail free card. it is infinite because you can always use it, therefore although there is recognition of wrongdoing (at first), there is no need for a preventative measure to take place, because the recognition only looks at the consequence of reverting the status of "wronged" to "righted", not about the causes of the status "wronged" to have happened. This leads to an infinite loop of wrongful actions. What would happen if we constantly said "sorry" unnecessarily at a set interval, which we'll call the canadian way, there would always be our desired consequence and no wrongdoing to ever take place!

Without the recognition and admittance of wrongdoing, the wrong action itself will repeat forever in the relationship because its tolerable. making it an infinite get out of jail free card. If this was a system, fault tolerance would be at 100%, the error rate is probably the highest in any system that could exist, if it was code, then there wouldn't even be such a thing as bugfixes, the only recourse is "have you tried rebooting it?" method of recovery systems. Of course if the fault tolerance was not 100% then everything would be different.

senshan 32 minutes ago||
We can not attribute the moral image of the protagonist to Bieber himself. He is an artist, so he is describing an experience of life, perhaps stemming from the receiving end of a fake apology.

Otherwise, it is a very good and thought-provoking article.

keane 24 minutes ago||
Accidentally read this in Zizek’s voice, can imagine him delivering this in a recreated neon lit motel room set
godwinson__4-8 14 minutes ago|
I can hear the sniffing now
shrubby 2 hours ago|
After spending most of today circling around maxims I appreciate the application.

Though I must state that the pic almost had me closing the tab before reading.

Here's another venting out, somewhere near Categorical Imperative https://kohlbergs7.org/epm/

KPGv2 2 hours ago|
> After spending most of today circling around Maxims

a sentence i have't heard since middle school at the local corner store with my bros hesitant about buying a lad mag

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