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Posted by l-one-lone 8 hours ago

How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs(lectronz.com)
944 points | 602 comments
anigbrowl 38 minutes ago|
Thanks to tomis who posted the EU FAQ on the topic below: https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/ad1...

None of this applies to companies that are micro-enterprises or use generic rather than branded packaging. There's a helpful diagram on page 13. The author of this article seems to have imagined a worst-case scenario based on either a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of the EU rules; the discussion here seems to have a lot of people who are in a big rush to demonize their perceived political opponents on ideological grounds.

mstaoru 7 hours ago||
I don't know if this EU regulation will work or not (most likely not), but I can share how it is done in China (where package volume is orders of magnitude higher).

China identifies "choke points" most packages pass: large platforms and logistics companies. Yes, Chinese e-commerce is more centralized on Alibaba/JD/PDD etc, but there are actually much more logistics companies in China than in EU.

They also do not introduce these regulations "from tomorrow" (well, sometimes they do, but it's a different topic). E.g. the non-degradable plastic regulation was issued in 2020 to come in effect in 2025. This gives time to prepare and implement (unlike EU border controls mess...)

So now if something is shipped in non-degradable plastic, the logistics company is fined along with the sender. This is much more scalable and easy to implement. Logistics companies might rise their prices a bit in light of expanded work scope, but it would be peanuts compared to every individual seller.

Could EU just ask DHL/Hermes/whatever to charge an additional €1 "for recycling"? Yes, but...

But of course EU is fundamentally different in a way that the politicians need to please the electorate, so nothing is really planned ahead.

fallingbananna 6 hours ago||
>Could EU just ask DHL/Hermes/whatever to charge an additional €1 "for recycling"? Yes, but...

Within EU we already pay ~€3 for packages from China. And in Austria we will soon pay additional ~€2 for every delivered package. And 20% VAT.

Edit:

I am pretty sure at least some part of these already contribute towards recycling.

The goal here is likely not just to get more funding for recycling, but rather to use materials that can be recycled in the first place. Which you cannot achieve simply by charging businesses or consumers more.

mstaoru 2 hours ago|||
> Within EU we already pay ~€3 for packages from China

Yes, the point is, pay +€1 for packages from EU to EU to finance all this PPWR circus.

rvba 2 hours ago||||
DHL charges 1 eur for recycling, which it pockets since the envelope or box with thr product went to the consumer... who throws it away to the segregated garbage bin - for which every consumer also pays.
deno 6 hours ago||||
This has nothing to do with EPR. The €3 for packages from China is a fixed processing fee on top of potential tariffs.

They got rid of the de minimis €150 limit for tariffs and added fees on top.

There was also €25 VAT de minimis limit but that’s also no longer the case since some time.

LaurensBER 5 hours ago||
Important nuance here is that the €3 for packages from China is a temporary solution and will eventually (2028?) be replaced by a more permanent system which _might_ work out more favourable for electronics.

Having said that, the customs duty will go to the EU budget so there's now a direct incentive for the EU to maintain or perhaps even increase this.

danielovichdk 4 hours ago|||
It should be much higher.

The amount of shit that gets shipped from China to Europe (world) is fucking ludicrous, and people should be taxed heavily for the stupid shit they often don't need.

rwyinuse 3 hours ago|||
Unfortunately, if you want to fix electronics more often than not China is the only place you can buy spare parts. I don't think buying spare parts to devices counts as "stupid shit".
eptcyka 1 hour ago||
If you were to interpret the comment you’re responding to charitably, you’d understand that electronics components are a minuscule minority of all of Chinese exports.
roywashere 1 hour ago||
Sure! I understand that everyone buying stuff on Temu and Shein is horrific. At the same time, me paying $$$ for ordering electrical components from China is rough for me. And also, I find it mind-blowing and ridiculous that Ali offered free shipping for small orders for so long whereas if I'd buy local I need to pay up for shipping, and if I'd start a small business in the Netherlands, shipping to the rest of the EU for small parcels is prohibitively expensive, not even taking into account PPWR
trinix912 3 hours ago||||
Right, so tell me where in Europe can I buy replacement parts for random electronics when I need them? Often very specific ICs, last time it was a cassette deck pinch roller, etc.

Preferably somewhere where it’s cheaper than the value of the thing being repaired.

danielovichdk 3 hours ago||
Yes, and that's a whole different problem, which in itself does not equal stupid shit.

The reason the price for parcels from China is going up in Europe is not shipping chips or component, it's from shipping stupid fucking shit people do not need, from e.g Temu and copied goods such as clothing, shoes and what not.

The toll offices in the airports are being drowned in cheap crap. Shut it down by making people pay more for the shit they buy. That will of course hurt everyone else, but that is how it works.

FpUser 4 hours ago||||
[flagged]
bryanlarsen 4 hours ago||
You're replying to a comment that proposes a market-based solution. Shipping has externalities. Those externalities should be included in the cost of shipping. Then the market will make the right decision.
timmmmmmay 3 hours ago|||
Every time I see somebody make an argument about "externalities" it's never actually backed up with any fact-based analysis about the magnitude of them. It's always exclusively vibes-based, "this thing you like is too cheap, it should be prohibitively expensive to make up for the thing I just thought of"
anigbrowl 53 minutes ago||
How do you expect people to discuss them across the scale of a whole economy without giant spreadsheets? Externalities are a well understood economic concept whose study goes back a century.

https://www.acton.org/node/6427

timmmmmmay 14 minutes ago||
I'm not saying externalities don't exist, I'm saying that basically every time somebody makes an argument relying on the concept, there's no attempt to quantify the externalized cost, it's just a vibe. Just go upthread, the argument is just "the stuff you're buying is crap that I don't think you really need, therefore it should be more expensive, however much more it takes for you to stop buying it".

The economic concept implies that we're going to have an evidence-based discussion about how we're tracking specific dollar cost amounts of pollution or something, and then in practice that essentially never happens and it's just "I've decided you don't really need that thing you want"

Betelgeux 3 hours ago|||
Well, if some bureaucratic governing body provides decisions based on some opaque system, and forces these upon market participants - usually that is regarded just the opposite of market-based solutions in economics. Those decisions do have zero chance of internalizing external costs, but most likely will just add an other layer of externality and move the process even more into the field of non-market based coordination mechanisms.
mns 7 hours ago|||
> They also do not introduce these regulations "from tomorrow"

This wasn't introduced "from tomorrow", people had 1 year and a half to prepare for this (at least) or to protest this. See some comments below how individual countries actually messed this up.

> But of course EU is fundamentally different in a way that the politicians need to please the electorate, so nothing is really planned ahead.

> I don't know if this EU regulation will work or not (most likely not)

It's good that you take the time to just make assumptions about how the EU is bad based on your knowledge on how it operates...

gpjanik 6 hours ago|||
"people had 1 year to protest this" this is terminal stage subjugation to bureaucrats
HWR_14 5 hours ago|||
How long should we have to wait to hear objections to a rule before we can implement it?
Aeolun 3 hours ago|||
Don’t wait for objections to an obviously dumb rule at all. Save us all the trouble and don’t implement it?
breezybottom 59 minutes ago||
Who gets the veto over the democratic process? You?
radu_floricica 5 hours ago|||
[flagged]
ruszki 3 hours ago||
The stupid rules were imposed by member countries, and not by the EU. There are several countries, like Italy, Hungary who were not imposed that stupid rules, because EU didn't force anybody to have this level of stupidity in these rules. There is a reason why the article mentions only Germany, Austria, et al, they are the idiots, and not everybody or the EU... Also, nobody forced these countries to have incompatible systems. They chose this.

So no, it's not EU's ruling, but their idiot member states. As usual. And of course, everybody points to the usual scapegoat, regardless of the truth. And probably the truth is, that those specific member states wanted this mess.

ikari_pl 5 hours ago|||
We did
fakedang 4 hours ago||
Simply put, the Eurocrats can't hear us all from up there.
formerly_proven 7 hours ago||||
It's yet another EU regulation that requires a rep for each EU country or you're not allowed to do business. EU single market is a bad joke at this point.
akie 6 hours ago||
People here REALLY love to complain about the EU.

Do you understand what the EU even is?

Imagine trying to create a single set of laws to apply to all of the countries in North and South America at the same time. Just try to imagine it, because that's about as close an analogy as you're going to get. Now re-evaluate your criticism in that light, and understand that comparing a single state to a collection of 27 states is more or less a non-sequitur.

veeti 6 hours ago|||
They weren't asking for a "single set of laws". "Single market" however is a pre-existing concept recognized as "one of the EU's greatest achievements" [1], and lacking regulations in providing said market is what their critique was about.

[1] https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/single-market_en

akie 5 hours ago||
> "one of the EU's greatest achievements"

And it is! People here are always complaining about the EU as if it's a single state, even though it's very clearly in the process of becoming one. It's a long road, we're not sure if we're going to make it all the way to the finish line (but I suspect we will), and we're going to have some happy little (and big) mistakes along the way. But for now it's imperfect, and it might be imperfect for a very long time to come. It's still a lot better than not having it, and we're actively working on improving it.

aleph_minus_one 3 hours ago|||
> People here are always complaining about the EU as if it's a single state, even though it's very clearly in the process of becoming one.

Rather: if you look at what the EU is doing, it is rather a huge advertisement that the EU should not become one.

Aeolun 3 hours ago||
Nah, it should either become one, or dissolve, but this half baked shit definitely isn’t it. I’m sure it’s good for the bureaucrats though.
aleph_minus_one 3 hours ago||
> Nah, it should either become one, or dissolve, but this half baked shit definitely isn’t it.

Since the current situation is shit, and one EU national state will be shit, too, this only leaves one option. :-) So let's dissolve the EU before even more billions are wasted in this futile project.

breezybottom 58 minutes ago||
I'm trying to think of a single metric by which the EU hasn't been a massive success.
empiricus 4 hours ago||||
If you dont have a real single market, what is EU? just easier to cross the borders?
fakedang 4 hours ago||
Don't forget the two government buildings and sessions, for absolutely no fucking reason, because why not? Let's add even more bureaucracy to the mix!

It's better to be an EU MEP and do absolutely fuck all tbh.

veeti 4 hours ago||||
Yes, well, the point here was that we are going backwards.
drnick1 3 hours ago|||
> People here are always complaining about the EU as if it's a single state, even though it's very clearly in the process of becoming one.

I think that attempts at making the E.U. a state are doomed to fail. There are too many differences between countries, including customs, language, legal systems, etc. The United States of America works because all states largely inherited or adopted the British social contract. You can't replicate this in Europe. The E.U. should have never been more than a free trade agreement. The currency union was a big, fat mistake that amplified the Great Recession in many of the poorer E.U. states.

ericmay 6 hours ago||||
> Imagine trying to create a single set of laws to apply to all of the countries in North and South America at the same time.

I actually think it would be quite a bit easier than it is to create the EU. There's a lot more broad cultural homogeneity between the countries in the Americas than there is within Europe. Even on the topic of language you've got the vast majority of all peoples speaking some combination of Spanish, English, and Portuguese. And Latin America has a bit more limited geopolitical concerns than Europe does which makes managing some tensions easier than it might otherwise be.

But I'm not sure why you are considering "it's hard to create the EU" to be a defense against complaints or criticism related to the EU itself. Maybe it's hard and it won't work and the criticism is reflecting that and others are pointing out that it's a flawed task to begin with for some number of reasons. For my own part I think it has been a fascinating topic and a remarkable accomplishment of statesmanship to even get the EU to this stage, albeit like anything there are some very valid drawbacks.

raverbashing 6 hours ago||
> There's a lot more broad cultural homogeneity between the countries in the Americas than there is within Europe

No, not really. Unless you believe the Hollywood view that everything south of the US border has a Sepia filter

Intra-Canada commerce is a PITA in itself

Do you think Mexico looks in the eyes of half the central American countries? (Mexico being North America, yes I know)

ericmay 5 hours ago||
Yes, yes really. No I don't believe there's some color filter south of the border - that's your baggage/perception of Mexico/Central America.

> Do you think Mexico looks in the eyes of half the central American countries?

Did you mean How do I think Mexico looks in the eyes of half the Central American countries? If so I'd say it's nuanced and many people in those countries have their own views and their own various problems to solve, just like folks in France have a different view on immigration than, say, Switzerland, or how Germany and France can't agree on a fighter jet project and are looking at different industrial policies, or how Spain has a lot less interest in Ukraine than Latvia does.

Of course South America is incredibly culturally diverse, but I think it's a lot more homogenous than Europe is not just in terms of policy but culturally too. But hey if you disagree, sure make your case if you'd like. I'm just discussing the topic based on my own perceptions. The EU has something like 27 official languages and an Americas block would likely have 3 or so - that itself is the kind of thing that makes integration a lot easier.

carefulfungi 2 hours ago||
It's amusing to see a European cite the linguistic result of European colonialism (assuming your three languages are Spanish, English, French - or maybe Portuguese) - and the destruction of thousands of spoken languages - as an argument for the cultural homogeneity of North and South America that they are unwilling to apply to their own continent.
ericmay 2 hours ago||
I'm not European (not that this matters anyway) - and the three languages I mentioned were Spanish, English, and Portuguese just because those are the primary languages spoken across the hemisphere.

In Europe a lot of people speak English as a second language but by and large many member states speak predominantly more languages - Spanish in Spain, Portuguese in Portugal, French in France, Italian in Italy (there's 4 different major language groups right there) and when you add in economy size, prominence on the global stage, geopolitical interests, history, and more it seems to me, in my opinion of course, it's a bit more difficult to wrangle, say, Germany and France together who have collectively killed millions of each others citizens versus, idk, Mexico and Colombia who are certainly distinct and have their own rich national and regional cultures (just like the United States even) but speak the same language and, in my view, get a long a little bit better.

I'm not arguing that there isn't a vibrancy in culture or that these countries are entirely homogenous. I'm arguing it would be easier to wrangle them together in a bloc of sorts than it was to get (and keep) the EU together.

For what it's worth a lot of cultural differences are becoming increasingly (unfortunately) minor differences at best because of globalization and the Internet and other communication technologies.

> and the destruction of thousands of spoken languages

Eh thousands of languages were destroyed by war and destitute and colonialization of various sorts throughout history. I'm not going to put a random assortment of them on a pedestal to get angry about just because they happened to be more recent (400 years ago). But anyway isn't China currently destroying spoken languages in places like Tibet and Xinjiang?

carefulfungi 1 hour ago|||
Sorry for assuming you were European in expressing what I see as ironic. Perhaps itself ironic as a mistake. My bad.

I think Europe and the Americas are differently heterogeneous and differently homogeneous. Certainly the Europeans have made more practical strides in building a coalition across their members than, say, South America or Central America. The reality is that Europe demonstrates a higher degree of solidarity between states than these other places. So it's strange to me to argue the opposite.

But if I understand, your assertion is that the Mayans, the islanders of the Caribbean, the people of Peru, or the Amazonians are less culturally different from one another than the citizens of, say, Greece and Norway? I'm not sure I buy it personally .. but I can see your argument.

lazyasciiart 52 minutes ago|||
> prominence on the global stage,

not...really a solid argument for how well they would combine, but clearly a major contributor to how how much you know about them.

And FYI those languages didn't disappear 400 years ago. They are spoken today. Guatemala alone recognizes 25 current spoken languages - Spanish and 24 languages that are completely unrelated to any European language.

> For what it's worth a lot of cultural differences are becoming increasingly (unfortunately) minor differences at best because of globalization and the Internet and other communication technologies.

Good news! Many of these languages are still spoken today because these people still live in societies without the internet and other communication technologies! They don't even speak Spanish, their national official language, because they don't know anyone who speaks Spanish.

You don't have to know history, but try knowing a little bit more about current politics and geography before the sweeping statements?

arjie 6 hours ago||||
“It’s hard to do X under conditions C” is a good explanation for why “X is crappy” but it seems like a poor reason to re-evaluate “X is crappy”. For a small business owner, larger markets with lower barriers to entry are better than smaller markets with fragmented standards.

An explanation for why some markets are smaller and fragmented is interesting academically but it doesn’t change that it’s not worth participating in.

r3trohack3r 6 hours ago||||
America does it with 50 states
akie 5 hours ago|||
I know that this is a popular point-of-view in the US, but your states and legislative processes are all very homogeneous in comparison. You guys mostly speak the same language, you have the same cultural touch points, you have a shared history, shared media, and mostly centralized power.

Your country looks more like Germany (and if you know your history, that's no coincidence) than it looks like the EU.

Aeolun 3 hours ago||
I think, at this point, most people in Europe broadly have the same language as their second language.

> Overall proficiency: According to data from the European Union, over 43% of the total EU population speaks English as a second language, making it the most widely spoken non-native tongue across all 24 non-Anglophone countries in the bloc.

akie 2 hours ago||
Bombastic side eye
bryanlarsen 6 hours ago||||
That analogy would hold only if inter-state commerce was the responsibility of the states rather than the federal government.
aleph_minus_one 3 hours ago||||
> America does it with 50 states

And Germany has 16 federal states.

voakbasda 6 hours ago||||
In theory, true. In practice, state independence has been dead for the better part of a century.

The 10th amendment has been eviscerated by the courts. By a strict reading of its relatively simple language, most of what the federal government does is unconstitutional.

Today, USA is unabbreviated as the “United States of America”, but the country was founded as the “United States for Anerica”.

As such, I am strongly in favor of returning to our former glory by stripping the federal government of most of its power and transferring it to the states.

I am also wise enough to know that will never happen without a long and bloody revolution, and I am okay with that given the lived reality that has defined my life.

We live in tyranny. You may not feel the rolling boil of the water that surrounds you, my fellow Americans, but make no mistake: your goose is cooked.

HWR_14 5 hours ago|||
> state independence has been dead for the better part of a century.

Can you please put a date on when you think this happened and what were the turning event(s)?

Because you could mean a lot of different points over decades. And what and when you think was the turning point is pretty significant.

WarmWash 4 hours ago|||
The interstate highway system that is economically critical for most states, and gets repaired/maintained with federal dollars.

Anytime there is a spat, the federal government dangles those highway dollars to get their way.

Exoristos 1 hour ago|||
An easy to overlook affair called the United States Civil War kicked off the trend.
nemomarx 5 hours ago||||
Given what the states use their current power to do, I'm pretty fine with it so long as the party I'm like is in control of the federal government. If the last ten or so years of politics have taught us anything it's good to be on top with the tyrants, I guess.
hnfong 5 hours ago||||
> country was founded as the “United States for Anerica”.

Do you have actual sources for that?

(Funny thing, I googled the phrase in quotes, did not realize the misspelling, and was a bit frustrated that the only result was this comment on HN...)

senderista 3 hours ago||
LOL just last week I was looking at an original copy of the US Constitution at the National Archives and that is most definitely not what it said.
ericmay 5 hours ago|||
Add in the function of the senate and the ongoing public perception of it, and as/if the senate is neutered by populist parties (MAGA/DSA) as they intend to also do with the courts, the argument that the states are sovereign (and they are by definition and constitutional agreement) becomes more and more practically useless, unfortunately (in some ways).

I'm not anti-federal government or anything but clearly we can see that there are issues in how the federal government has become so powerful and yet we're beholden to these two big-tent political parties leaving folks across the various states unhappy with decrees from Washington. Don't like Donald Trump's power over you? Maybe the federal government shouldn't have that power then?

deno 6 hours ago|||
And EU does it with VAT-OSS scheme which was also separate in each country before. There's just no will to do this with EPR because there's too much money and lobbying power in the recycling cartel.
Aerroon 4 hours ago||
The funny thing is that when the EU introduced these new VAT rules then it screwed over small and microbusinesses as well. It took them years to implement a minimum threshold for VAT (which every reasonable country has, but somehow EU rules did not).
marky1991 6 hours ago||||
Yeah, obviously we wouldn't try to do that. Our laws, cultures, and priorities are wildly different. By this lens, the main problem seems to be that the eu expanded too much and grew too large to actually have a coherent purpose.
teiferer 6 hours ago|||
> eu expanded too much and grew too large to actually have a coherent purpose.

Anybody seriously thinking that seems completely oblivious to how central EU is to the economies and every day lives of member states. There is a lot to criticise about EU but without it, the Europeans lives would be much worse and their economies would be nothing to speak of. It is very sad that populists managed to popularize the image of the bloated unnecessary monster. Even otherwise intellectually capable folks.

HWR_14 5 hours ago|||
How is "single purpose plastic wrapping" a cultural priority? Or how is an agency to collect the fees something that needs recreating?
deno 6 hours ago||||
I mean that's what the PPWR directive is already? It's a single set of laws that applies to all member states. They just didn't write any interop so every country has its own system and registration.

If it was just single registration for EU and paying for each kg of plastic or electronics to member states (like you do with VAT already via VAT-OSS) then it wouldn't be such a big deal.

Even if you didn't have any agreement with recycling companies in each member state and you had to pay the highest per-kg fees it would still be manageable for small sellers.

Meanwhile if you want to sell a single circuit board you're looking at several thousand euro in registration fees and several months for processing just to sell legally to 4-5 countries in EU.

lyu07282 6 hours ago||||
This is comical the liberal in their perpetual confused state: "they are doing their very best!", "you couldn't do it better yourself!". The EU primary function is to serve capital interests to protect neoliberalism across the EU at all cost. It's the perpetual shock doctrine, thatcher politics for all, there is no alternative, dead-end, end-of-history, its what you would get when you put the IMF in charge of a continent. Literally everything is falling apart, the fascists scapegoat irrelevant migrants for the mouth breathing median-voter/peasant while the liberals are haplessly groveling at their imperial masters and censure Spain for being an unruly vassal.
wbl 5 hours ago||
You would not have the Euro if the IMF was in charge nor the many failures to have a single capital market. The EU, and politics that created it is much more complex than you think.
lyu07282 3 hours ago||
Oh please the ECB, EU Commission and the IMF are staffed by the same kinds of people with identical ideology, they are practically the same institution that work together all the time to shiv periphery nations. They never encountered a problem they didn't want to solve with more austerity.
Aeolun 3 hours ago|||
They manage to do it for 50 states in the US just fine. It isn’t exactly rocket science. It’s just that individual countries in Europe all feel like unique little snowflakes.
r_lee 3 hours ago|||
I mean you're just looking at this from the wrong lens.

nobody in an EU member state thinks of themselves as a "state" in the EU, they're a country but in the EU

nobody would want the US kind of federalism. not to mention there isn't a single majority language aside from English for those that know it well enough

akie 2 hours ago|||
That’s the most uninformed view I’ve read about this in a VERY long time.

The US / Trump doesn’t even manage to renegotiate a trade agreement with Canada, although you speak the same language and your cultural proximity is about 95% - so maybe it’s time to get off your high horse buddy

janderson215 6 hours ago|||
[flagged]
radicalbyte 7 hours ago|||
Erm I've been talking about this for 4 years now. So I'm not sure how it can "come out of nowhere" unless you're paying 0 attention to really important regulation in your field.

There will be a post in 9 months from software companies crying about the PLD and CRA because their leaders were asleep at the wheel for the last half decade.

ihateolives 6 hours ago||
"in your field"? All small businesses and solo enterpreneurs that I know who are hit by this are not "in this field". Their field is making jewelry or knitted toys or something similar. Now many are just not planning to ship EU wide just because it's too high risk for them.
teiferer 6 hours ago||
> All small businesses and solo enterpreneurs that I know who are hit by this are not "in this field". Their field is making jewelry or knitted toys or something similar.

Are they shipping within EU? Then they literally are in the field of shipping within the EU.

xboxnolifes 5 hours ago||
Thats a stretch of the term "field". Are they also in the field of making money and the field of working within European law?
warkdarrior 4 hours ago||
Yes, of course. They need to be aware of regulations in all aspects of their business (manufacturing electronics, shipping, consumer warranty, and taxation seem applicable).
pjc50 7 hours ago|||
Per downthread, this whole crisis arises because of Chinese companies shipping to Europe. The EU Directives are definitely visible in advance, none of this is dropped on people.
xinayder 5 hours ago|||
Even then, being allowed to ship and package in Germany may as well be valid for other EU countries? I mean, you register in a single country (ideally where your business is) and then the other countries can just accept your packaging bureaucracy?
mstaoru 7 hours ago||||
I think this directive was from Feb 2025? Is 1 year enough for everyone to register in 25 different packaging regulation bodies, appoint representatives, etc etc?..

I also fail to see how this will stop Chinese companies from shipping to Europe. No Chinese company will register in this farce.

philipallstar 6 hours ago|||
> Is 1 year enough for everyone to register in 25 different packaging regulation bodies, appoint representatives, etc etc?..

Also, are those bodies ready for the volume of applicants? They certainly weren't when MDR came in.

hvb2 7 hours ago|||
> No Chinese company will register in this farce.

What makes you so sure? It really depends on enforcement but your Chinese company sure isn't going to just drop Europe as a market.

mstaoru 7 hours ago||
Exactly. I don't see how EU can enforce it against China, when most of the goods are imported from China. Or any other non-EU country, for that matter.
mistrial9 7 hours ago|||
> this whole crisis arises because of

hmm that is not systems thinking there.. there are more layers than that!

lokar 2 hours ago|||
Or have the sellers of the packaging pay the fee. So the maker can buy pre-paid packaging.
drnick1 3 hours ago|||
> Could EU just ask DHL/Hermes/whatever to charge an additional €1 "for recycling"? Yes, but...

The biggest problem in Europe is the obsession with taxes. Tax on recycling, tax on AI, tax on this, tax on that. So people who want to make money and keep it without having to fight absurd amounts of regulation and red tape just go elsewhere.

Danox 2 hours ago|||
But of course EU/WEST is fundamentally different in a way that the politicians need to please the (lobbying companies), so nothing is really planned ahead…
goobatrooba 5 hours ago|||
The article ist about a Platform which only facilitates the sale but actual sending is done by the original maker, so that doesn't seem to match.
mstaoru 2 hours ago||
Platform is one choke point, logistics companies (e.g. DHL) is another. In EU logistics would be the easier one. Let them handle all the PPWR circus, charge a little more from the seller.
quijoteuniv 7 hours ago||
[dead]
yardie 8 hours ago||
One of the biggest problems that I have in the EU is that it's almost federated. EU will pass laws, countries will adopt those laws, but you end up with 20-24 different versions of those laws. With some countries being strict or lenient about the law that everyone agreed to. And a lot it is written from the perspective that large corporations are the only ones who do business throughout the EU. It's completely missed that small entrepreneurs may also want to take part. Modern technology makes it feasible, but old ideas just drags it down.
bambax 7 hours ago||
Yes. I used to sell objects on Amazon in Europe. You can sell from just one country, but then each sale outside of that country is an "export" that triggers high fees.

For sales to be "local", products need to be stored in warehouses in each country. But that in turn means the owner of said products (the seller) has to be registered for VAT in that country, and submitting annual reports in each country's language.

I went to the trouble of registering in 6 different countries; in some countries, Amazon more or less helps sellers submit reports; in others, they offer to partner with local lawyers.

The result is a mess of reports, injunctions, penalties for late filing, etc. coming to you in Polish, German, Spanish, Hungarian. I eventually gave up.

Europe is not actually a "single market". It's a federated bureaucracy entirely indifferent (or hostile) to small businesses.

radicalbyte 7 hours ago|||
Having worked on the inside: this is by design. You know for 100% that Pepsico and Coca Cola unleashed an army of lobbyists to make sure the laws were written in a way where the single market only worked for large business.
cm2012 6 hours ago|||
It's comforting to believe that large corporations with the greed of the rich and powerful is what makes these inefficiencies but really it's about a million little political negotiations, primarily driven by voters dislike of change.
schubidubiduba 5 hours ago|||
It's comforting to believe that actual voters have that kind of political influence over these things, but really it's about a million little talls, primarily driven by lobbyists commanded by big companies
cm2012 4 hours ago|||
You are about 20 years out of date. Modern politicians get almost all of their funding from small donations, in other words, from passionate partisans who care about culture war issues.
worik 1 hour ago|||
I find that difficult to believe, having been involved in political campaigning (not in EU or USA).

Have you evidence?

cm2012 1 hour ago||
Sure. Here is us politician finances from 2024. Note that the vast majority is from individual contributors.

Only 6-8% of us political funding in 2024 came from business-PAC contributions.

https://www.fec.gov/resources/campaign-finance-statistics/20...

Further splits here: https://www.fec.gov/resources/campaign-finance-statistics/20...

There are exceptions to this of course but most politicians answer to voters much much much more than big business.

danlugo92 5 hours ago|||
People still in bubbles in the big 2026
jollyllama 5 hours ago|||
How is that comforting? The phenomenon is entirely negative.
cm2012 4 hours ago||
Because if it's just a few evil people making the world bad then that's fixable. The truth that it is it's an extraordinarily complex stew of incentives means its harder to fix.
eptcyka 1 hour ago|||
Sure, cynically, you can use the argument that we can’t just limit the influence of megacorps because the problem is more complex than that. Sure, but limiting them will still help.

Why not do the obvious thing that can still help? There are some simple things we as a people or a conglomeration of peoples can do to curb the enthusiasm for state level corruption. It is doable. It will not solve everything - but surely we can still do it.

jollyllama 4 hours ago|||
> Because if it's just a few evil people making the world bad then that's fixable

The conclusion does not necessarily follow the premises

philipallstar 6 hours ago|||
Lobbyists don't do this. Regulators/lawmakers need to be corrupt and/or incompetent for lobbying to do this.
teiferer 6 hours ago|||
You need lobbyists to pull on one side and the general population to be too uninformed or too non-caring to not pull enough in the other direction.
philipallstar 4 hours ago||
That removes the culpability again from the people being lobbied, who are for paid by mandatory taxes, so they don't have to win work - their only job is expertise and honesty.
makapuf 6 hours ago||||
You need both, and both are responsible for the current state.

To stop this, you need to try to stop both until one doesn't exists.

worik 1 hour ago||||
> lawmakers need to be corrupt and/or incompetent for lobbying to do this.

Not really

Lobbyists get to talk into the ears of the powerful. It is literally their job. They make very sensible arguments for their point of view. So it seems very sensible, for the legislators, to make laws that aid the powerful and impede the weak.

The legislators are very busy with pressures from all sides. The cognitive load of considering views that you do not hear is enormous. It is not "incompetent or corrupt" to fail.

The system has the corruption baked in. It is one of the mechanisms, of many, that wealth and power concentrate in "democracies "

I have seen this process from the inside, good people making terrible decisions

radicalbyte 6 hours ago||||
The lawmakers are: in the EU you have a block of right-wing parties. The large part are funded by large companies and make laws which favour them. Same thing as in the US.

There are other right-wing (and left-wing) blocks who are funded by the Kremlin and Kremlin-supporters who just try to break things.

At the EC they're not corrupt, they try their best, but they're often given bad advice and are themselves not experts. And their power is limited (they can nudge but not push).

philipallstar 4 hours ago||
> a block of right-wing parties. The large part are funded by large companies and make laws which favour them. Same thing as in the US.

You need to be mad to think it's the right wing parties in the US who get the most funding. E.g. [0]

> The Biden—now Harris—campaign committee raised $997.2 million and Trump’s campaign committee raised $388 million in total between Jan. 2023 and Oct. 16, 2024, the most recent date for which Federal Election Commission filings are available

[0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2024/11/04/trump-v...

contravariant 6 hours ago|||
So lobbyists did do it then?
luke5441 7 hours ago||||
Is that with the One-Stop-Shop regulation or was that before that?

If it was before than, then the EU recognized the problem and implemented a fix for it.

Aerroon 3 hours ago|||
Yeah, it only took 4 years for them to fix an obvious screw up. Only 4 years. Surely every business can survive that.
AnssiH 6 hours ago||||
I don't think any EU One-stop-shop scheme covers "local" goods sales in other EU member states yet, i.e. an EU company has to register in all EU countries they hold stock in.

That is changing with the Single VAT Registration (SVR) legislation, effective in 2028.

bambax 4 hours ago|||
This was 2017-2021. Not sure if One-Stop-Shop covers this as it mentions "cross-border sales" and the problem with Amazon fulfillment and storage was to make all sales local (not cross-border). But maybe it does cover it. I don't know.
andai 3 hours ago||||
Kinda sounds like it would have been cheaper, more profitable, and less of a PITA for you (a European!) to sell in the US?
petra 5 hours ago||||
Let's say I'm a German small business owner.

Tomorrow Europe becomes a single market. How do I compete with a similar business but from a country where business costs are significantly lower ?

nemomarx 5 hours ago|||
How does a Californian company compete with a company in Missouri that has lower labor costs and less overhead/ regulation?

They seem to manage this just fine, but it's a pretty similar scenario. You could also push for standardized business costs and regulations eu wide ofc to help.

trinix912 3 hours ago|||
Standardized costs would just hurt the poorer members more. You’re underestimating the economical difference between EU member states. It’s more like if Californian businesses had to compete with Mexican in a single market, and Mexicans would be paying Californian prices with Mexican wages in the end.
petra 5 hours ago|||
The Californian company probably opens their new plant in Missouri, so now it's not exactly a Californian company.
fakedang 4 hours ago||
That's the entire point - the Californian company leaves the higher-value R&D jobs in California, while it outsources the lower-value but still necessary manufacturing jobs/data warehousing jobs to Missouri. Both places benefit, because ultimately the union benefits as a whole from the distribution of productivity.

If you concentrated all manufacturing around just a few spots, you end up in a situation like India - inland states with resources get stripped of their resources while all the companies are based in coastal metropolises with port facilities.

One could also go the other way, like China, and let the states compete between themselves for manufacturing prowess, but you need a central planning committee to ensure that the competing provinces still coordinate and work to complement each other. Easier in China, not so much in the EU.

The EU single market is a sorry joke.

anigbrowl 1 hour ago||||
You boast about the superior quality of german manufacturing. Or move your manufacturing to eastern Germany where costs are lower.
bluecalm 1 hour ago||||
You specialize in things that are more difficult to make in poorer countries - you use your advantages they use theirs. Afterall this is what happened to a lot of Polish industry after we got our EU membership - it died under pressure of already developed competition from countries like Germany.
Muromec 5 hours ago|||
You don't and that's by design.
teiferer 6 hours ago|||
Indeed, and that's why we need more EU, not less of it.
labcomputer 6 hours ago|||
> And a lot it is written from the perspective that large corporations are the only ones who do business throughout the EU. It's completely missed that small entrepreneurs may also want to take part.

I'm not convinced that's an accident. I think politicians in Europe are just better than those in the US at hiding who they really work for.

There are numerous examples of regulations in many European countries that create a glass ceiling for anyone who strives to be more than just middle-middle-class, while creating effective loopholes for the wealthy to continue multiplying their wealth.

For example, the total (State + Federal) top tax rate for someone living in California or New York is not too different (maybe 2-3%) from someone living in France or Sweden. But the difference is that in California the top rate does not kick in until you earn north of $1M per year, while in Sweden or France the middle class is already paying those rates.

Likewise, in the US you cannot (legally) shelter your income by declaring it to be foreign income, as you can in most European countries. That is a tax dodge not applicable to the middle class.

And then we have the present discussion: The compliance costs are of course too high for any small business, so these regulations are just another form of regulatory capture to prevent anyone new from breaking into the upper class, while allowing those already there to have it easy.

teiferer 6 hours ago||
It's a success of the upper class to pit the middle class against the lower class and the immigrants. As long as people on one "side" complain that there is too much foreign culture and they'll all be replaced and/raped and the other "side" sees the racists as their main enemy, the rich have an easy time.
Helmut10001 8 hours ago|||
Living in Europe, I find that with LLMs, it is possible to navigate the federal & law jungle. However, LLMs don't protect you from institutional envy or the resistance of people trying to block progress simply because it is perceived as 'too modern' or disruptive. I find this the hardest challenge. And I have the feeling during times of general decline, like these, it gets worse.
barrenko 7 hours ago|||
And it's like there's a uno card that's "increase taxes for freelancers". And they sure like to use it.
arjie 6 hours ago||
That makes sense given the structure of the society, no? If you were to build an organization whose purpose was a predictable amount paid out to the senior most members committed ahead of time for an indefinite period, you would prioritize predictable income. In the ideal, your contracts would all be long-term contracts that don’t fluctuate very much.

Any entity that seeks to take risks to earn outsize income increases the income variance and makes it hard to organize your committed payouts. So you are forced (by your priorities) to discourage the entrepreneur and freelancer and encourage the 18-60 salaried employee. Fixed fungible production unit can be used as an input to a machine that produces committed output.

Then you import guest-workers etc. to improve throughput. You are forced by your priorities. Probably the expansion of the US welfare state will meet similar constraints soon enough.

It’s a bit just-so so I think there’s an over-claim in there but I think the seed is there.

nradov 7 hours ago||||
Right, it's a zero-sum mentality versus a growth mentality. When people don't believe that growth is possible then they focus on guarding what they have.
21asdffdsa12 7 hours ago|||
I personally hate the "reenact" the old- good times to recreate the prosperity cargo cults. What created those prosperous times, where "characters" that would just do things, and ask for forgiveness by the law later. And that was actually priced into the justice system, by giving the judges a range to verdict from. In a way, the rule of law was much less strict in the 50s and 60s and way more informal.
jabart 6 hours ago|||
US Sales tax is the exact same way. Each state has a different rate, Texas has multiple rates inside a zip code you have to manage. Each state also has a nexus requirement that is either money, or number of transactions based. Then the filings you have to do and have a Foreign LLC registration, a registered agent in that state, and a yearly annual report to file to tell them you are still in business and here is my $40-200.
HWR_14 5 hours ago|||
Except you can sell through Amazon (or other online store) and they will manage all that for you as a single fee. Exactly the solution that the article proposed for the EU rules.
deno 3 hours ago|||
Except you don’t have min threshold requirements for neither PPWR nor WEEE, it's before you can sell anything. And you need to register, hire an authorized agent and get contract (which always has minimal amount rather than per-kg pricing) with local recycling company in each member state.

Also you have Streamlined Sales Tax Registration System (SSTRS) for actual registration in US which covers 24 states.

greenraven 7 hours ago|||
> It's completely missed that small entrepreneurs may also want to take part

This is by design. It’s the same all over the world. The wealthy are not going to just let you compete

HeyLaughingBoy 7 hours ago|||
Dunno about that. I live in the US. I can start a small business today and the only thing I'd have to do differently is file an additional form on my taxes next year. Yes, that's a simplification that doesn't apply to every situation, but it is still completely accurate.
tengwar2 6 hours ago|||
That's pretty much the situation in the UK if you are a sole trader. If you set up a limited liability company, that's a separate entity and has its own tax reporting requirement, but nothing onerous. I am a sole trader, and manage a small company separately from that.

One thing I have heard of in the USA is the need for a "business licence". I'm not sure what that is or whether it applies to all businesses, so I'm not sure what it would correspond to in the UK. Neither of my businesses needed any licences or permissions to start trading.

Gormo 6 hours ago|||
There's no standard concept of a "business license" in the US either. Generally, the corporate registration / LLC filing is all you need to start doing business as a limited liability company, and you don't need to do anything special as a sole proprietor. Sometimes state and local governments have special requirements for particular types of activity, and require registration to begin operating in a regulated field. City and county governments sometimes have a business tax that you have to pay if you're operating a facility open to the public, and may require the tax receipt to be on display on your premises.
corford 5 hours ago||
Same with UK LLPs
dudul 6 hours ago||||
> One thing I have heard of in the USA is the need for a "business licence"

Where have you heard about that? Because there is no concept of universal business license.

sjsdaiuasgdia 1 hour ago|||
[dead]
senderista 2 hours ago|||
And you'd need to line up your own health insurance.
HeyLaughingBoy 2 hours ago||
Usually not if you already have a day job. But that's completely orthogonal to the original statement.
argentinian 7 hours ago||||
Laws are voted by politicians. Do you mean that most EU politicians are puppets of EU corporations?
Eddy_Viscosity2 7 hours ago|||
EU politicians seemed to be fairly captured by corporations generally. Less so than politicians from the countries themselves. Voting turnout for EU representatives is very low compared with voting for local officials. I think its because people know that who they vote for as their chancellor or prime minister can make a big impact on their lives. They see the EU parliament as this distant thing and don't follow it so much. EU representatives therefore don't have as much accountability and can more easily be swayed by lobbying. How else can you explain the whole chat control thing which everyone hates but still keeps getting pushed through. Like who is voting for this a-holes.
nico_h 6 hours ago||
It passed on a technicality of present reps voted against in majority but not enough total votes because the president had triggered a special vote for the last session before recess when less reps are present.
Eddy_Viscosity2 6 hours ago||
Was even one representative that voted for this from a region where the people that they represent wanted it by even the slimmest of majorities? I don't think so. These votes were in full defiance of their constituents.
yardie 7 hours ago||||
The one thing EU politicians hate is disruption. Entrepreneurs are fresh entrants trying to disrupt an existing market. The politicians don't even need to be puppets. The fact that these small startups exist and may even succeed is reason enough.
throw-the-towel 2 hours ago||
I'd say this is not limited to the politicians.
Lutger 7 hours ago||||
Its not as bad as in the US I think, but yeah, most of the laws are actually (literally) written by corporations. I wouldn't call them puppets, but EU corps have an outsized influence on the outcome of the process.
runarberg 7 hours ago||
I don‘t know about EU laws specifically, but national law in Europe is often written by lobby firms in favor of their corporate sponsors. In Iceland for example the main corporate lobby is called Viðskiptaráð, and they brag about the high percentage of laws they write passing at the parliament (in 2007 it was like 90%). I don‘t think things are much different in the rest of Europe (maybe just less obvious due to size differences).
yturijea 7 hours ago||||
That might be one reason they refuse to be open about their financial supports in their various organizations yes. it is very well known unfortunately..
kingleopold 7 hours ago||||
Yes and mostly European elite and royal families. Royal families and their friends have strong power across Europe but they are well hidden via media.
techpression 7 hours ago||||
The entire purpose of EU is trade (trading nations don't go to war etc), trade is more or less defined by large corporations, it's through that lens every decision is made and measured.
psychoslave 6 hours ago||||
Nothing specific to EU here except the specific point is about EU this time. Otherwise just copy paste "most EU politicians are puppets of EU corporations" in some search engine and enjoy, here are the top result of such a search:

https://rednetwork.net/articles/2026/06/how-corporations-set...

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/eu-leaders-puppets-of-financia...

https://www.researchgate.net/post/What_are_the_reasons_behin...

https://edwardshepherd.substack.com/p/the-puppets-and-their-...

https://www.lobbycontrol.de/wp-content/uploads/EU-Lobbyrepor...

Now looking up for "EU politicians are prised for their probity and strong attachment to defend their people" here are the top results:

https://www.transparency.org/en/news/political-corruption-in...

https://www.ftm.eu/articles/european-parliamentarians-involv...

https://www.eupublicintegrity.com/what-is-public-integrity-i...

https://www.politico.eu/article/european-union-corruption-pf...

https://www.economist.com/europe/2026/04/29/europes-unpopula...

So even searching specifically for praising information, one will have to dig deep apparently, or maybe go straight to the official propaganda of what the politicians say about themselves (but probably less so about others).

Everyone is free to go as deep as they want (and can afford) and draw their own conclusions.

monegator 7 hours ago|||
It's usually US corpos that are lobbying all over the EU, it's unlikely that the EU automakers would have lobbied for their destruction
Aurornis 7 hours ago||||
It is not the same all over the world. Starting a small company in the US is a breeze compared to what I’ve watched peers in the EU fight against.
skylurk 4 hours ago|||
Back in college (USA) friends would spin up LLCs for the summer just to buy mowers or vans to do yard work. They would hire all the students who didn't get summer jobs. Those hired students would make about 3x a STEM intern makes in western europe today.
formerly_proven 6 hours ago|||
Interstate commerce also seems to be vastly easier inside the US in comparison to the alleged single market of the EU. The most companies seem to deal with is California-specific regulations. Meanwhile, most companies in the EU eventually opt to create a ton of subsidiaries, basically one per state, to handle all the localized duties that the EU requires.
kingleopold 7 hours ago||||
well said. like WB said, "There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning."
sleepyguy 7 hours ago||||
That is the issue across the entire world. Large corporations can easily bear the cost of regulatory laws, environmental requirements, rules, and regulations. They can also go to great lengths to promote an environment that is almost nightmarish for a smaller company or entrepreneur trying to enter the game.

They create barrier after barrier through their lobbying efforts. A good example is having to pay $50,000 for an inspector to come and determine whether your automatic door opens and closes properly, or to verify that your facility does not have a chimney. A friend of mine who owns a business in Niagara Falls, Canada, had to pay around $10,000 for a wind assessment to determine where chimney exhaust would go once released. He didn’t even have a chimney. They ended up having to have another inspection to verify they didn't have a chimney.

Many of these environmental laws are intentionally created and applied to small businesses as well, even when the cost of meeting the requirements is greater than what the business could realistically generate in sales.

The result is that large corporations can absorb these costs, while small businesses and entrepreneurs are often priced out before they even have a chance to compete.

polski-g 7 hours ago||||
Oh no. It's the mysterious "they"!
bpodgursky 7 hours ago|||
The US is wealthier, has more billionaires and has fewer of these barriers for small entrepreneurs. So no, this is not the monocausal explanation that applies equally everywhere.

(YES, the US has regulatory capture, YES the wealthy attempt to use it, YES we should try to eliminate it here too, but it remains true that it is easier to run a small business in the US, while having more billionaires. There are other explanations to the differential here).

21asdffdsa12 7 hours ago|||
Agreed, europe has a culture of "stability" first. The fear of disruption and chaos is larger after two WW and it outsourced the risks of disruption to the US. Basically, use the us as a test-mouse for new ideas and innovations, then when proven safe introduce them and ride those coat-tails to infinity.
petcat 7 hours ago|||
> use the us as a test-mouse for new ideas and innovations, then when proven safe introduce them and ride those coat-tails to infinity

What actually happened, and continues to happen, is that Europe and the EU became entirely dependent on US tech and other foreign industry. It wasn't just a matter of "see what works and then copy it domestically". It oursourced basically everything.

trinix912 3 hours ago||
To be fair, it was mostly outsourced to China, at least in Slovenia with our electronics development and manufacturing (Iskra and Gorenje). US stuff has also always been more expensive in every category except software.
watwut 7 hours ago|||
Is fetishizing disruption good for USA? It did helped to create a billionaire oligarch class, but that class is literally intentionally destroying it. I mean, it may end up destroying Europe and the rest of the world too, but the US democracy seem to be their first target.
silon42 8 hours ago|||
Even medium-sized corporations are not willing to send products across borders to consumers (say, outside Germany), further destroying the single market.
Xelbair 7 hours ago|||
>One of the biggest problems that I have in the EU is that it's almost federated

I would argue it's even worse, because with properly designed federated system you get checks and balances to some extent.

There are parts of EU that have almost zero oversight.

ajmurmann 7 hours ago|||
Can you elaborate more? When you say "checks and balances" do you mean explicit legal mechanisms or implicit mechanisms like Tiebout-style foot voting? For the latter areas with "almost zero oversight" seem advantages. Also, can you give an example of these low-oversight places and how it manifests? I'm thankful even for some pointers in what to search for.
asdfadsfgfdda 7 hours ago|||
One example is the effective prohibition on spraying pesticides by air, including drone. Drones allow lower pesticide use than current, legal practices
ajmurmann 6 hours ago||
Oh, so "parts of the EU" wasn't about geographic areas but policy areas? But this sounds like more regulation, not checks and balances either. Are you replying to the right comment?
dgellow 7 hours ago|||
Yeah, this in between state is really frustrating. I hope we will see a push towards more federalization, but that’s unlikely
trinix912 3 hours ago||
It’s unlikely because smaller member states wouldn’t want that as they’d be outvoted by bigger members and thus forced to implement laws that might not even make sense in those (smaller) countries.
dgellow 2 hours ago|||
It’s unlikely for a lot of reasons, but that’s not one of them given we don’t know what a federalized EU would look like.
throw-the-towel 2 hours ago|||
That's why federations have a Senate where all states get equal representation.
chermi 7 hours ago|||
I think this is a big factor. While I would prefer a more federated US, the US as is is a great market to start in. It's 350M fairly wealthy people under mostly the same tech restrictions. That's a great place to grow.

It's important to remember that even without the fact that big companies basically write the regulations, regulations naturally tend to being effectively regressive wrt company stage/size. Every new one is a hurdle that a bigger company has more resources to overcome.

ryukoposting 6 hours ago||
> It's 350M fairly wealthy people under mostly the same tech restrictions

and, on a case-by-case basis, those people are generally happy to adopt other states' standards in the name of convenience and efficiency (California notwithstanding). Look at E-ZPass/I-Pass as a great example of harmonization across states.

It's funny. Ask any Illinoisan how they feel about adopting Ohio's policies and they'd bristle. But say "hey we're gonna make your highway transponder work in every state east of the Rockies" and they're all for it.

I have to wonder if Europe has the same thing going on.

chermi 4 hours ago||
Your example of adoption is interesting. I think California has actually influenced other states on efficiency. I wanted to say disproportionately, but perhaps in exact accordance with their economic and political power.

I don't know the details well enough, but I do know that there is an effective anti-fedaralist force in the US wherever federal funding is concerned, as it comes with rules conditions (rules) attached. I would be interested to what extent this acts as a bias toward cooperation in the case of ez pass, given the interstate system.

ryukoposting 3 hours ago||
> I think California has actually influenced other states on efficiency.

California has a frustrating tendency invent its own systems that are neither better nor worse, but nonetheless incompatible with more widely accepted standards. The highway transponder example actually applies again - Fastrak.

CA has some great ideas too, don't get me wrong (ubiquitous painted curbs: great!) but a lot of the time it's just different for the sake of being different.

PinguTS 6 hours ago|||
In the EU you have to distinguish between "Directives" and "Regulations".

A "Regulation" becomes "law" in any member state without modification. No member state has to adopt anything. Examples are the GDPR and the new Machine Regulation.

A "Directive" does not become "law" in any member state. A member state has to enact their own national laws to implement the directive until a given date. It does not have to be single law. It could spread many laws. An example is the Machine Directive before it was re-released as Machine Regulation.

More on the different types can be found here from the EU itself: https://commission.europa.eu/law/law-making-process/types-eu...

pjc50 7 hours ago|||
> It's completely missed that small entrepreneurs may also want to take part

This was traditionally something that the UK was better than the rest of Europe, having carve-outs for small businesses.

alephnerd 8 hours ago|||
The bigger issue in OP's case is they are dependent on de minimis.

The de minimis crackdown [0] and EPR [1] are both being rolled out because Chinese conglomerates like Pinduoduo (Temu) and SHEIN took undue advantage of that while ignoring European regulators on issues such as environmental regulations on packaging [2], dark patterns [2], breaching the Digital Services Act [3], and gacha/addictive engagement mechanisms [4].

All of OP's proposals directly conflict with the goal of de minimis taxation and the EPR.

Seems European HNers are fine with European regulations until it hurts their niche interests or pocketbook.

[0] - https://www.ft.com/content/102e18d7-d06b-4405-a347-97bb3c373...

[1] - https://www.vereev.com/news/europe-faces-trade-conflict-is-e...

[2] - https://www.ft.com/content/ef72f186-2a02-4c51-927d-2c01ddece...

[3] - https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/eu-says-temu-breach-r...

[4] - https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/eu-probes-shein-over-...

rescbr 7 hours ago||
The issue is that those marketplaces got too mainstream, and the average consumer is too stupid.

10-15 years ago if you were importing stuff from China you'd know that the trade off for cheaper prices is that you'd lose your consumer laws protection and you'd be on your own. If you wanted those, then you'd go to your local retailer and pay extra.

whywhywhywhy 6 hours ago|||
Means nothing though because no European country can produce the goods an impoverished European can afford to pay for the goods so the local store is just the same Chinese goods shipped to that address other than your home address.
Aerroon 3 hours ago||
And 5x the price
logseman 7 hours ago||||
And then everyone started doing it, which meant that your local retailer isn't in business anymore (see local high streets in many countries). The choice you had 10-15 years ago doesn't exist anymore because everyone went for the cheaper price, and now the question is where the extra goes that we used to pay to the local retailer.
visarga 6 hours ago|||
AliExpress and Temu would refund you if you complained about a delivery. Zero risk.
iknowstuff 5 hours ago|||
What’s with those streets? Any examples?
pjc50 7 hours ago|||
This got downvoted but is basically correct. We had a great "grey" market, but the tradeoff for that is having to stay small enough to not be visible.
tjwebbnorfolk 7 hours ago|||
> old ideas just drags it down.

Are these old ideas? The broad regulatory apparatus in the EU appears very modern and intentional.

cloudie78 7 hours ago|||
Ah yes, let’s give the EU and its undemocratic system in which policy formation is heavily filtered through a relatively narrow professional political class, ordinary voters have weak or almost no direct control over major policy choices, dissent encounters administrative/economic punishment, and central institutions possess and use powerful financial means to discipline peripheral governments should have even more centralised power?

And no, just because voting for MEPs is bolted on there as a pressure valve doesn’t suddenly make it all okay when most of the real decisions happen behind closed doors and adherence to the passed laws, no matter how damaging is ensured through financial coercion.

Not a single person voted or agreed to this law, and yet here we are.

PeterHolzwarth 7 hours ago|||
Yeah, that's always been my concern with the EU (I'm American, for context): the long worrying practice where the legal concept of the EU is assembled by a small group who very much want EU citizens to go back to sleep and only wake up once all the laws and regulation has been created.

A federation makes sense to me: I live in one. But how the EU has assembled itself in a way that seems to unrepresentative has been worrying to watch over the last couple decades.

iknowstuff 6 hours ago||||
US House term is 2 years, European Parliament is 5 years. The latter is actually proportional at least but you can see how they’d only feel pressure every so often
petra 3 hours ago||||
But it seems relative immune to the current rise of populism.

Not a bad tradeoff, all included.

tchalla 6 hours ago|||
It seems you have an issue with representative democracy.
cloudie78 6 hours ago|||
Quite the contrary actually. I take issue with systems LARPing democracy.
psychoslave 6 hours ago|||
There is no such a thing as "representative democracy", that’s antinomic bullshit throw at people to lower it down to powerless populace.

Either citizens have the power, exercise it continuously in practice and are supplied with everything it takes to assume that role properly with all the duties it implies, or there is no democracy beyond empty words.

RandomLensman 5 hours ago||
Has such a system ever existed anywhere? How would citizens even have the time?
cloudie78 4 hours ago||
Switzerland
RandomLensman 4 hours ago|||
Continuously exercised and on everything as a matter of course? Not all is done via direct democracy there (even though it is the ultimate backstop in a way), it also has representative democracy.
tchalla 3 hours ago||||
Switzerland is also a representative democracy
gls2ro 3 hours ago|||
You cannot compare 10 million people with 450 million people when talking about direct democracy. It cannot be done I think. But if you know a way propose it here.

Just saying lets vote directly on everything will put everything on hold until all goes down.

n4r9 7 hours ago|||
> It's completely missed that small entrepreneurs may also want to take part

There's truth to this but it's an overstatement as it stands. For example, GDPR rules are less strict for small companies.

mnau 7 hours ago||
Please elaborate on less strict rules for Gdpr? There is Record of Processing Activities exemption for <250, but if you have to comply with Gdpr (and you do), you need essentially same info as Ropa and of course it has to be up to date. How else can you ensure you are in compliance?
troupo 8 hours ago||
Because if the EU tried to force countries into single compliance, there would no end of "EU is trampling national interests" and similar screaming.

It's an unwinnable situation. Again, EU-level politics keep assuming everyone (corporations and states) are adults. Unfortunately, everyone are just a bunch of screaming, scheming petulant children.

0x_rs 7 hours ago|||
>Again, EU-level politics keep assuming everyone (corporations and states) are adults. Unfortunately, everyone are just a bunch of screaming, scheming petulant children.

One in four MEPs are involved in scandals [0] ranging from harassment to organized crime and corruption. The European Parliament also remains a free out-of-jail card through abuse of parliamentary immunity, and they do abuse it [1]. EU politics is a circus.

0. https://archive.is/neTOG

1. https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-parliament-accused-overre...

sajithdilshan 7 hours ago|||
One of the best example is Ursula Von der Leyen. She was sent from Berlin to EU by Angela Merkle because when she was the defence minister of Germany under Merkle’s government there was a huge scandal of offering contracts (https://www.euractiv.com/news/von-der-leyen-admits-mistakes-...)

She was sent to EU so she can do less harm in the future, but the irony is that she became the head of EU.

p_l 7 hours ago|||
MEPs in many countries do not actually have immunity.

However, the bigger issue is that european parliament is treated in many countries as essentially dumping ground between national elections.

philipallstar 7 hours ago||||
> there would no end of "EU is trampling national interests" and similar screaming

To just call this "screaming" is to completely dismiss a real and huge problem. The EU is the idea that countries should fuse into economic areas, but the countries are also individual still. Of course there's a lot of friction.

For example, because Greece was in the Euro, they couldn't inflate their currency to compensate for the fact that they gradually outsourced more and more work to Germany, until they had nothing left and hit a financial crisis because their government couldn't borrow more money. That's not mindless screaming.

Yizahi 6 hours ago|||
Do you realize that your example actually counters your point? The Greece's example illustrates that a misbehaving minority shouldn't have an outsized influence on the majority, which is a correct thing to aim for, I completely agree with you on that. But the current EU arrangement actually allows minority entities to veto majority's initiatives and improvements, exactly because EU is not fully federated. 1 member country can screech and blackmail 26 other members for any arbitrary reason, and they all must comply with this minority's ultimatum. If EU was a federation, majority would simply outvote any obstructionists.
iknowstuff 5 hours ago||
This is too simplistic. Most eu laws pass by simple or qualified majority.
troupo 7 hours ago|||
So you've described Greece as a bunch of scheming petulant children.

"Our plan to be inaccountable didn't work, so we'll try a different scheme instead".

And yes, it's a huge problem. That's why I called the situation unwinnable.

graemep 7 hours ago|||
They could neither fix the problem with the policy tools a country with its own currency would have, nor did they have the automatic support from a central budget a region or state of a country would have.
nradov 6 hours ago||
Greece could have fixed their problems by cutting spending and collecting more taxes (not necessarily higher taxes, but actually collecting the taxes that were owed). Currency inflation was never necessary.
iknowstuff 5 hours ago||
I think they did? At the cost of very slow recovery, which I think is the problem with austerity measures.
nradov 4 hours ago||
Austerity is not a "problem", it's simply the only remaining option when you run out of other people's money.
iknowstuff 3 hours ago||
Countries can inflate their debt away at the cost of eroding savings and new borrowing becoming more expensive, no?

https://www.statbureau.org/en/greece/inflation-charts-yearly

nradov 3 hours ago||
Countries can't push that approach very far before new borrowing doesn't just become more expensive, it becomes effectively impossible.
philipallstar 6 hours ago||||
> So you've described Greece as a bunch of scheming petulant children.

Can you quote where I did that, please?

carlosjobim 7 hours ago|||
No, the Greeks were cool and calculating, turning an inflating fake fiat currency into hard assets like real estate, while not working or producing anything.

The introduction of the Euro was the start signal for each country to try to inflate as much as they can for their own benefit - since the first inflator gets the best value out of the currency. Idiots are left holding paper currency worth less and less each day. Having to work harder and harder in a never ending spiral.

pjc50 7 hours ago||
The Euro had a much better set of inflation controls than most of the previous European currencies. Especially the lire.
carlosjobim 2 hours ago||
Absolutely. But when you inflate your own currency, it is you who have to deal with the consequences. If you inflate everyone's currency you reap all the benefits and leave everybody else with the burden of the consequences.
Xelbair 7 hours ago|||
Including EC, and MEP themselves.
LelouBil 4 minutes ago||
[delayed]
mpweiher 7 hours ago||
A couple of things to note:

1. The EU commission wanted a single central registry

2. It was the member states, via the Council of Ministers, that torpedoed this.

3. The EU now advises its member states to not implement/enforce this

4. Until the correction, which is on its way, can be fully enacted.

So the same old same old: member states do shitty stuff and blame the EU.

amarcheschi 6 hours ago||
I haven't followed the legislative process, where can I find that the eu wanted a single registry but the country pushed for national ones? Because i have never read it.

I'm not saying it's not true, it's just that it's so hard to follow these things when one is supposed to have a life as well

mpweiher 1 hour ago|||
There has been reporting on this in many places. Here is one:

https://packaging-journal.de/en/eu-commission-wants-to-scrap...

"According to the Händlerbund, the European Commission's proposal to abolish the requirement has been on the table since December 2025. However, discussions in the Council of the EU were suspended a few weeks ago after a majority of member states spoke out against it."

"A restricted version is currently being discussed in the European Parliament. According to this, an exemption is only to apply to micro-enterprises with up to 49 employees and an annual turnover of a maximum of 10 million euros. A first reading is scheduled for October 2026 at the earliest."

amarcheschi 1 hour ago||
Ok ty
Avamander 5 hours ago|||
You have to use the FOIA-equivalent of your member state to get access to the documents submitted to the EU by your country.
antiloper 6 hours ago|||
> member states do shitty stuff and blame the EU.

The crooked MEPs also voted in favor of this law. They are just as culpable.

Turneyboy 7 hours ago|||
Why would the implementation of this not simply be a fee that the mail carriers have to impose?

Isn't that by far the simplest solution that removes any and all bureaucracy for almost everyone and still catches 99% of the cases?

Yizahi 6 hours ago||
It's all about PR. If EU formulates the new law like they are fighting against pollution and plastic garbage, it sounds nice enough to the electorate who are content with greenwashing and won't investigate much. And 99% of population won't ever a hear a word about real issues by the sellers, to them sellers would quietly and imperceptibly start disappearing. But a direct fee sounds more like a tax hike and the same electorate ordering packages from foreign shops would definitely remember that.
codingbot3000 7 hours ago|||
Good point.

If I were a small seller I would just ignore this, like many sellers on Temu do. Before you get into trouble, someone must take notice that you did not register for the recipient fiefdom's protectionism racket. And if that happens, it is not sure that you really are in trouble. As with the GDPR, this kind of regulation is almost unenforcable in practice.

deno 1 minute ago||
It is enforceable and the financial punishment is severe. There's no US’s LLC equivalent in EU, you basically only have Inc. equivalents (much more expensive to start and operate, both because of accounting and corporation tax), so most small sellers in EU end up fully liable with their own wealth for the ridiculous up to 200,000€ penalties.

Chinese sellers don’t care, sure, but if you live in EU you do care.

Sure the financial penalties are in practice not common but they are still chilling. However, EU is also now starting marketplace level enforcement, so in practice even those Chinese sellers will not be able to sell anything without registration.

mrtksn 7 hours ago||
It's always like this, EU is in urgent need of becoming a country in some form and local government deal with local stuff only.

It shows up in the stats, citizens almost always trust EU more than their governments and want EU to have more power but all this means those local governments becoming less important and therefore no one is really pushing for it.

Fingers crossed Trump invades Greenland so things can start moving.

antiloper 6 hours ago|||
> It's always like this, EU is in urgent need of becoming a country in some form and local government deal with local stuff only.

The lesson is the opposite: The EU needs LESS power, not more. If the member states didn't have a cartel to tyrannize their collective population, this regulation could never have happened. Any single country that would try to enforce this would be on its own.

mrtksn 6 hours ago|||
Nope, less power means the current situation will be the default as each country by default will have their own body and rules to govern instead of one rule and one body that handles the whole continent.

Unlike what you appear to believe Europeans are not some libertarian captured by the EU socialist, most europeans do want less wasteful and less harmful packaging.

antiloper 6 hours ago||
Do most Europeans want all of their E-commerce to be only handled by American and Chinese megacorporations without local players? Because that is the effect of this regulation. Instead of a SME shipping a cardboard box, it will be Amazon or Temu.
nickff 4 hours ago|||
This also negatively affects smaller trading partners, and makes (bi-lateral) trade with the EU much less appealing to them. This means that countries like Canada are less likely to maintain trade agreements which open their market to all sorts of EU goods.
mrtksn 5 hours ago|||
You are not arguing in good faith, such a loaded question. I will leave it here, too much BS in one comment to deal with it
antiloper 5 hours ago||
And "do you want less wasteful" packaging isn't? Because of this question businesses got priced out of shipping from the EU to the EU.
mrtksn 4 hours ago||
nope, irrelevant
A_D_E_P_T 3 hours ago|||
> Any single country that would try to enforce this would be on its own.

Actually they'd have no retroactive way to enforce it at all, and the most they'd be able to do would be to charge an import duty on a per-parcel basis, which would ultimately be borne by the importer.

This would be a huge improvement over the utter nonsense they're implementing!

cute_boi 2 hours ago|||
Trump couldn't invade Iran, forget Greenland.

EU will be in mess forever because it is problem of power and greed.

thinking_cactus 1 hour ago||
I think in the future we should think less about fine-based regulation, and more about easy access to education, and assistance in compliance. It's much better for the environment (and the economy) that someone doesn't pollute, for example, than that someone pollutes than pays (a potentially large) fine.

So if you want to make a product, there should be readily available, easy to read and follow, guides to make your product compliant. For products with large sales volumes or higher risk, the procedures of course should be more thorough, allowing some more complexity. I think even free consults offered by governments could be a great idea, much better to have consultants before violating a law, than waste money with a lot of inspectors. Also stimulating people to solve problems (many times using technology) is another benefit.

germandiago 2 hours ago||
My first decision when building my company was to leave Spain.

They smash you very quickly. They do not care if they ruin you via prosecurion or you have to shut down. The tax agency is extremely agressive. The laws favor the agents to extents that are illegal and weven criminal (check the bonus of inspectors).

Check Robert Amsterdam work on this, something we all spanish know for a long time.

ken666 2 hours ago||
Where did you move to, if I can ask?
TacticalCoder 2 hours ago||
Spain also smashes foreigners owning a property in Spain.

They see tourists and foreigners (even if they're from the EU) as a gigantic target to squeeze and screw as hard as they can. That's what you get when your economy is based on tourism and rich foreigners owning property there: you have to squeeze those hard for it's basically all you have. Officially tourism is "only" about 15% of the GDP but Spain is a service economy and so many of those services revolve around tourism and foreigner owning properties there. Same for the construction sector: they love it when rich tourists have fancy villas built there.

My wife used to own a house there. So did her mom. They sold it all and kissed Spain goodbye once and for all: too disgusted by how the fiscal authorities were treating them.

I won't go on vacation there anymore. Both my wife and my daughter speak spanish and yet we don't plan to go there anymore: she's done giving money to Spain to be seen, in return, as a lemon out of which more juice can be squeezed.

Vote with your feet and you wallet: when a country tries to fuck you, give it the middle finger.

marc 2 hours ago||
> “Spain also smashes foreigners owning a property in Spain.”

In which way?

Grombobulous 1 hour ago||
Usually when people say stuff like this it translates to “the tax rate is slightly higher than [insert less desirable location here]” or "my marginal tax rate seems really high since I have a very high income"
Jskewel 7 hours ago||
PPWR is an EU catastrophe.

Firstly for the reasons outlined in the article: it essentially makes being a micro/small business in the EU impossible, if your market is other EU countries.

Secondly because it validates insidious populist views that the EU institution is useless and incompetent at a fundamental level.

The legislation is so ABSURDIST that the EU have actually asked companies to ignore the law that they just implemented. I can assure you it is difficult to ignore a law that comes with a €200000 fine for non-compliance.

nonethewiser 5 hours ago||
If this view is validated:

>EU institution is useless and incompetent at a fundamental level

Then aren't the people who hold it simply correct? Why brand this valid view as "insidious populists?"

>The legislation is so ABSURDIST that the EU have actually asked companies to ignore the law that they just implemented.

This is probably the best way to emphasize it. It is completely absurd, useless, non-functional, etc.

kilpikaarna 4 hours ago|||
> The legislation is so ABSURDIST that the EU have actually asked companies to ignore the law that they just implemented. I can assure you it is difficult to ignore a law that comes with a €200000 fine for non-compliance.

That's the commission telling small businesses that please don't stop selling in the EU and suggesting member states should use common sense. Unfortunately, as with all EU directives the implementation and enforcement is up to the member states, and especially certain northern countries really love their bureaucrats leaving common sense at home in the morning and sticking to the exact letter of the law. The 200000 EUR fine is Germany specific I think, obviously a prime candidate here.

jansan 2 hours ago||
Germany does an extra gold plating on every single EU regulation.
fh973 2 hours ago||
Or just ignores them, if it doesn't serve the lobby groups, like for example the EU Water Framework Directive (WFD).
easytiger 6 hours ago|||
> Secondly because it validates insidious populist views that the EU institution is useless and incompetent at a fundamental level.

- resentment that bad policy damages the institution’s reputation - annoyed it proves people i hate like correct

alerighi 6 hours ago|||
Really the chances that someone will ask a small company to be compliant are just very low. Of course if you sell something in an envelope nobody will ask you anything, the deal and the reason for this law (that I consider correct) is to address packaging waste from big companies.

Of course this law it's complex for nothing, to me, they could have just added the cost of the recycling of the packaging material into the cost of the packaging material itself, making it that only the companies producing the packaging would need to comply (so that if you buy a box to ship something the cost of recycling of the box is already embedded in the cost of the box, like they did with plastic bags at the supermarket).

carlosjobim 7 hours ago|||
Gosh I hate it when politicians are useless and incompetent, since it just validates the false populist propaganda that politicians can be useless and incompetent, which is clearly not true (even in cases when politicians actually are useless and incompetent, which they of course cannot be, since that is evil propaganda).
gmueckl 7 hours ago||
Politicians can be quite evil, but in a functioning democracy they need to be at least competent at gathering support and navigating the occasional backstabbing plots to make it to the highest ranks of government. So I'm hesitant to call them totally incompetent.
zigman1 7 hours ago|||
Exactly. Competent at getting votes (and taking them away from competition) and incompetent at leading and being in power.
ab5tract 1 hour ago||
What is the alternative that you are proposing? When I read something like this all that comes across is a strident desire for totalitarianism.
fleroviumna 1 hour ago|||
[dead]
lofaszvanitt 3 hours ago||
The legislation doesnt apply to small joes..... stop disseminating total hogwash, especially if you don't have any idea what you are talking about.
iamniels 3 hours ago||
PPWR is not the only one. Don't forget WEEE and the battery regulation. Only for VAT we have a single entrypoint, for all other regulations, businesses have to submit for each country. Its simply impossible.

On the other hand I estimate that between 50% and 200% of the taxes collected like this are wasted and not applied to their ultimate goals. The average collected amount per submission is so small that you cannot pay the bureaucrats managing the complex submissions from these sums.

An entrepreneur told me that they were being audited regarding the battery regulation. Two consultants came over from EY and audited all submissions in depth. They found out that the business overpaid by €10. The entrepreneur of course didn't mind and told them to keep the €10. The EY consultants told the entrepreneur to resubmit, otherwise the business would be fined. I think the government spent more on that audit by EY than the business will ever bring in on fees.

On top of this we have the regulations like Intrastat and in the future near-real-time submission of digital invoices to our tax authorities.

the__alchemist 8 hours ago|
This echos the FCC rules in the US, which I believe are gotten around by not complying.

Even if you are not making an intentional radiator, and/or are using datasheet-specified layouts or modules, you still must comply, which makes these businesses non-viable if complying.

I believe Adafruit gets around certifying every device by declaring themselves a cellphone company and being on good terms with regulators. This isn't viable for the sort of businesses and people described by this article.

I'm not sure about the Ali/Amazon products. I'm assuming they just are not complying.

stephen_g 8 hours ago||
FCC allows suppliers to self-declare conformance with EMI/EMC rules. You’re obviously taking a risk selling stuff if you haven’t had it properly tested so don’t really know if it passes but it’s unlikely to really be an issue for a small maker selling low quantities, especially if any intentional radiators (Bluetooth, WiFi etc.) are already-certified modules.

Your device tends to need to be causing problems, that the FCC then go and track down, and then come back to you. That is (hopefully, depending on the kind of device) extremely unlikely.

As for Ali stuff, probably lots of it is not tested but still comes with a FCC label - but if it is shipped from overseas, who is going to take responsibility for it? Nobody… So there is nothing they can do except fine the person who bought it if it’s really causing problems (and usually I doubt they’d even do that if the user wasn’t intentionally doing something they shouldn’t have been, they are just told to stop and maybe the device would be seized/ destroyed)

ac29 7 hours ago|||
> FCC allows suppliers to self-declare conformance with EMI/EMC rules

Yes, though they can also ask for your lab results or to inspect your testing facility and hit you with massive fines if it turns out you falsified your compliance documents. As you mentioned this is very rare though - even enforcement actions against non-certified intentional radiators are uncommon.

dom96 7 hours ago|||
Huh. I thought that is actually the EU that allows self declared conformance, rather than the FCC. But looking into this it seems both do?

I recall trying to build some hardware in 2020 and getting discouraged because of the CE/FCC silliness. Even though I could self declare for the EU it seemed like a big risk to do so.

WarmWash 7 hours ago|||
As a hardware guy it totally kills me, to get a fun or needed small time product off the ground and legally onto the market can require ~$250k of lab certifications.

Imagine making a mod for a video game, and to legally cover your ass, go through months of testing that cost $250,000.

Talk about killing a project in the cradle.

On the flip side, there are engineers who absolutely do not give a fuck, and will design their product with zero regard for emissions. To them the world is "If it's not illegal, then I cannot comprehend why I cannot take it to the extreme".

ranger_danger 7 hours ago||
Adafruit sells boards as subassemblies, which don't need individual certification.

https://emcfastpass.com/fcc-rules-kits-subassemblies/

Putting that board into an enclosure and then selling it now makes you the manufacturer, and you must certify that new product.

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