Top
Best
New

Posted by l-one-lone 10 hours ago

How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs(lectronz.com)
944 points | 602 commentspage 2
Robin_f 9 hours ago|
This is actively preventing me from sending packages to other countries as a maker. No matter how small the risk is, I don't want to risk a 5000 euro fine for sending a small amount of packages to other EU countries.
dgellow 9 hours ago||
Really sorry you’re experiencing this, that whole regulation rollout is a complete mess. The leadership should be sacked for such an incompetent regulation, it’s insane how much troubles they are creating for small businesses.

Another small business owner reported their experience in this Reddit thread, looks really bad: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1vrz88a/comment/p4i...

I’m as pro-EU as one can get but that’s a mistake we should solve asap

contravariant 7 hours ago||
The main reason I'm not particularly pro EU is the following.

How would we even sack the leadership?

RandomLensman 6 hours ago||
Who is the leadership? The Council - then it would be national elections etc for the individual national representatives; the Commission - then it would be the European Parliament.
contravariant 1 hour ago||
Requiring a 2/3 majority from the European Parliament seems a bit like a theoretical option more than anything. Even if it did (almost) happen once.
anigbrowl 1 hour ago|||
No matter how small the risk is

That's just an excuse then. Register with whatever local authority in your country handles these things and in the unlikely event you get a grumpy letter just send them a copy of your registration documents.

criddell 7 hours ago|||
Do you send them as your business or as yourself? If it's the latter, then I would consider forming a business to take on the risk. That's not free either, but think of it as insurance.
graemep 8 hours ago|||
Some people did the same when VATMOSS was introduced.
jeltz 7 hours ago||
And those people were idiots. MOSS was trivial to implement and an improvement of what was there before. I implemented it myself for our company.
graemep 5 hours ago||
Not far small businesses with very small numbers of cross border sales.
catigula 9 hours ago||
Do you not cross the street given the risk of being hit by a bus?
sokoloff 9 hours ago|||
Fortunately, buses are not invisible and you can look for a bus before crossing a street to gauge and control your risk of being struck by one.
tygon 2 hours ago|||
Schrodinger's Bus: You do not know if you will be hit until you are already in the street. I feel like there is some promise in naming a band this, but it is unfortunate it so often is what people have to deal with when bringing an item to market.
Hizonner 8 hours ago|||
... but you can still fail to notice one, and you can gauge and to some degree control your risk of being fined.

In fact, if you sell 10 hobby prototype boards to other hobbyists, you probably have a higher risk of getting hit by a bus on the way to the post office than you do of being fined.

x0x0 6 hours ago||||
Sorry, that's a really poor analogy.

Because there's a handful of companies (lectronz, seeedstudio, ebay, etc) that have the full shipment lists. So the compliance agencies don't have to go after individual business records one business at a time; they can go to probably fewer than 10 businesses and find the suggested mass rule breaking with a sql join.

See also the national tax agencies with NACE codes (euro version of NAICS).

throw-the-towel 9 hours ago|||
Umm akchully, not crossing a highway to avoid being hit is a perfectly sane course of action.
fitsumbelay 9 hours ago||
except he said "street" not "highway"
armcat 9 hours ago||
This is a great read and I can extend this argument really to any small business. Tax filing, VAT, bookkeeping, privacy, consumer, workplace and sectoral requirements frequently impose a disproportionately large cost on microbusinesses. EU is more and more split along the enterprise and VC backed line, and everyone in between has disproportionate costs. My barber in Stockholm often complains about this - the amount of money they would need to earn to overcome all these costs is staggering. So they often do lots of gigs on the side.
varispeed 8 hours ago||
General view of EU politicians is that working class should be working for big corporations. Running own business is a sin.

The big corporations also don't want people to run small business, because they remove themselves from the job market and cannot be hired / exploited. So they lobby EU FOR regulations that ensure people cannot run business.

WarmWash 5 hours ago|||
>General view of EU politicians is that working class should be working for big corporations

The politicians are protecting the working class from corporations destroying society for profit. Lets not kid ourselves that the EU isn't endlessly praised for "having a backbone". Universal chargers, removable batteries, open app stores, AI data protections...

The thing is that people generally don't understand that everything in the world is tradeoffs rather than the media/internet portrayal of the world being good vs evil.

drnick1 3 hours ago||
> Universal chargers, removable batteries, open app stores, AI data protections...

The same "protections" also means that the E.U. has no major AI player at all. It seems like all the E.U. can do is tax and regulate what is invented and produced elsewhere.

flaunf221 2 hours ago||
> has no major AI player at all

So? Will major AI players introduce universal healthcare in US? Or is it coming along with AGI which is why it should be the most important to every citizen? Or maybe EU citizens should all band together and stop being lazy and go to having 0 mandatory vacation days?

Reminds of me very old USSR joke which was basically "we have rockets in space, and don't have sausages in stores".

merek 7 hours ago|||
> Running own business is a sin

Shouldn't any wealth creation viewed positively due to tax, not to mention value to consumers/society?

Or is the view that people on average produce more value when employed by a large corporation?

lnsru 5 hours ago||
A self employed person can deduct many things used personally from the taxes in Germany as a business expense. An employed person pays shit ton of taxes and the value added tax. So from pre-tax salary you get only 30% for spending. Lol. It’s slavery.
varispeed 3 hours ago||
Corporations also deduct things as expenses. Small business or self-employed person don't have any special privileges - au contraire - in many jurisdictions big corporations are not audited at all and have special tax arrangements where they agree with the tax man to pay certain amount of tax. The idea that small business somehow avoids tax is a myth. If you have limited company, your personal spending wont fly past accountant.
alerighi 7 hours ago||
My barber in Italy just doesn't make me a receipt in exchange for a discount if I pay him cash so he doesn't have to pay taxes. Come on... the cost to operating a small business are usually low/there are tax exceptions, and they most of the time are even not payed at all.

Of course if you are a person that ships 20 packages you don't register a company to do so, nobody will, you just sell them privately (and the exception to sell things privately is quite high, in my country you can do it up to 5000 euros AT YEAR, after that you need to declare the income in your tax declaration but still you don't need to register a company if it's not your main income).

veeti 6 hours ago||
The barber in Stockholm probably wouldn't take cash if you tried ;) Single union, different rules.
matt-p 8 hours ago||
UK has similar rules but, as with pretty much all other similar regulations, there are de minimis carve-outs:

≤ £1m turnover: no packaging EPR obligation, regardless of packaging volume.

£1m turnover + >25 tonnes of packaging: small producer obligations.

£2m turnover + >50 tonnes: large producer obligations.

The EU has been removing de minimis thresholds because 'China' can easily 'exploit' them. They're kind of right, but it's obviously an insanely stupid situation when someone selling something as a hobby, or just starting up on their own gets dragged into this.

mytailorisrich 8 hours ago|
The UK tends to be much more sensible than the EU and the main EU countries (France, Germany, Italy).
matt-p 8 hours ago||
I agree, though it's not a very difficult challenge. There's still some nonsense here too like for example the TV License
bogdan 7 hours ago||
The tv license is a bad example and it's in many ways better than in Germany or France. In the UK you can declare you do not watch any national tv and you forego the tax. No such luxury in Germany where as far as I know you can't avoid it. In France it's funded through vat and of course it's priced in so everyone pays anyway.
AndroTux 9 hours ago||
As someone living in the tiny country of Estonia with just about 1.2 million residents, this worries me. No one but the biggest online shops in the EU will bother with the paperwork for such a small market. I'm expecting my import options to drop sharply in the coming years because of this.
drchickensalad 6 hours ago|
Sorry for the off topic but I absolutely love the Estonian House in NYC. Wonderful people, events, and food
blueSky1989 7 hours ago||
I initially learned about this from a luthier and plectrum designer, Hufschmidt Guitars, a one man shop in Switzerland. Some quotes from the update he sent to his customers:

""" For a one-person workshop, the result has been pretty brutal.

[...]

The numbers simply do not work for a micro-business like mine. Even in France and Germany, I send only around 1 to 2 kg of cardboard per year. In some other EU countries, I may send less than 100 g in an entire year. Paying annual compliance costs for one or two parcels makes no economic sense.

[...]

I have therefore decided to maintain EU shipping only to: FRANCE GERMANY """

nottorp 8 hours ago||
This is not new though. "We do not sell to EU end users."

https://pcengines.ch/recycle.htm

"... there are separate registration and recycling schemes for each of the 28+ EU member jurisdictions (and even a few of their provinces). What part of COMMON MARKET was so hard to understand for EU lawmakers ?

Since there is no single registration available, and separate registration would involve mindboggling complexity, bureaucracy and costs, we do not sell to EU end users until the EU gets their act together. Please order from EU based distributors, or as a business customer.

Business customers are expected to meet their obligations by registering in the EU countries they sell in. "

That was already ages ago when I did some sofware for them. 2007 ish if I'm to trust my Linkedin.

vlyan 3 hours ago||
>The main idea of EPR is sensible: businesses that place packaging on the market should help finance its collection and recycling.

it is not sensible at all because businesses and individuals who dispose of that packaging already pay for the privilege.

herbst 5 hours ago||
I ran an online shop from Switzerland. Some years ago packages suddenly returned with the info I need to register with a packaging something company now. I had no idea what's going on, I didn't understand the concept and what they wanted. Apparently there were several companies I could register at pay a fee and it somehow became legal again, none of them looked real it looked like a lot of weird broken fake websites.

Germany was just a small market for us so we stopped shipping there.

I assume it's better and more clear these days and this probably makes it kinda easier in the long run. However it's a perfect example on how such things don't work if not done properly.

martin_a 3 hours ago||
Newly established laws are always like a pendulum.

It swings to one side, overreaching and overcomplicating things, and then back to the other side where restrictions are loosened or removed.

Anybody remembers the EU platform for dispute resolution? It's gone after 10 years because nobody used it.

PPWR in 10 years will probably be something like: Sign up for a recycling system in your country and pay for the packaging you've brought into the market. Also have icons on the packaging so people know how to recycle them. (Except in France, they'll surely require some crazy stuff as always.)

lccerina 8 hours ago|
The complaint is totally understandable, BUT the examples do not make sense. Arduino did not start as some dude selling less than 10 boards a year, but as an educational tool, which THEN ramped up to 100s of boards produced every day.

If your perspective is "I may sell 10 boards this year, maybe", your target is some local/national maker-faire, not a EU marketplace.

I think makers with such limited productions will just fly under the radar (if you sell so little, it's likely you probably won't need to incorporate or declare taxes in a lot of EU countries). If they sell 100s of products across EU, they probably have at least one over-worked accountant taking care of existing compliance stuff.

varjag 7 hours ago|
It sounds like a pain for any small company, not just individual makers. There are many small manufacturers of boutique equipment that could be sold at dozens units per year, and this would add massive bureaucratic overhead.
More comments...