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Posted by zdw 1 day ago

Creepy Crawlies(people.kernel.org)
1142 points | 567 commentspage 7
gruntled-worker 9 hours ago||
There's something missing from the picture. The bots are:

- Using a terribly inefficient way to redownload the same commits as e.g. HTML diffs, possibly the most inefficient.

- Putting in tons of CPU cycles to surpass the Anubis PoC.

- Putting in other kinds of active effort like reworking access methods and buying "residential proxies" that are probably illegal in most jurisdictions.

This sounds more like escalating DDoS than AI scraping.

zbentley 7 hours ago|
Possible, but I doubt it. The sheer number of other free-to-read content sites dealing with the exact same problem the last few years (many of whom there's no plausible reason to DDoS) tells us that this is content harvesting, not an attack.
gruntled-worker 5 hours ago||
I'm curious and would like to see those reports. There's AI scraping for sure, but intentionally resource-consuming, increasingly-insidious AI scraping I've never actually read about.

AI scraping might be bad, but if a particular case that's actually a DDoS becomes the cause celebre against AI scraping, it will weaken the argument, not strengthen it.

beached_whale 13 hours ago||
I wonder if they could pre-render the stuff older than a month ago and compress it and serve it as static content. Not optimal, trades space for CPU, but might be cheaper.
inigyou 15 hours ago||
I also had this problem, but since nobody actually uses my gitea site besides crawlers, I just let a script run through my access log and ban every IP address who asked for a commit in the last 24 hours
innocent_name 12 hours ago||
Why can't they just ask Linux Foundation for 96, or even 1696 cores?

If you're reading this - go ahead and see HOW Linux Foundation spends their money.

fizlebit 11 hours ago||
I wonder if we're back to peer to peer networks with proof of useful work (e.g. serving read requests) vs proof of wasted work.
hei-lima 14 hours ago||
Great chart! Does anyone know what tool was used to make this?
hubraumhugo 4 hours ago||
There is a HN article on abusive AI crawlers on the front page almost every week, but we rarely talk about the path forward. Web scraping has been around for as long as the internet, and it was fine because we had established best practices (rate limiting, self-identification, robots.txt, etc.) that the industry agreed upon. Now we have AI labs and their crawlers that don't care about any of this gentlemen's agreement.

So how do we go from here? Is adding more difficult Anubis and Cloudflare bot protection really the solution? How many millions of human hours and billions in infra costs are we willing to spend on this arms race?

Some approaches that I think are promising:

- A robots.txt V2[0] as a standard way for website owners to state how bots and AI crawlers can use their online content and where to go (e.g. distinguish search from AI training use cases, point to a downloadable file instead of crawling everything, etc.).

- Something like Web Bot Auth[1] as a non-centralized standard for self-identifying bots and agents cryptographically. This would allow websites to allow or deny bots very precisely.

- what else?

[0] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-vaughan-machine-reada...

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-meunier-http-mes...

dunlin 9 hours ago||
Reminds me of debugging production issues at 3 AM. Both can make you jump out of your skin.
tarpitt 18 hours ago|
Maybe you could have a system that heuristicially detects when an crawler is making the request and then feeds them a modified page, itself generated from an LLM, that injects vulnerabilities and bad code and discussion and such.
NooneAtAll3 18 hours ago|
it's hard to separate spambot that only accesses 3-5 links per IP and a legit user. Changing content for legit user can be devastating
inigyou 13 hours ago||
Put a cookie wall in front. The bot will either load the cookie and have a persistent identifier, or not load the cookie and not get in
jay_kyburz 12 hours ago||
why is this not the answer? then you can also rate limit each cookie as well.
sgsjchs 10 hours ago||
it'll load the cookie, make one request, move to a different ip, load the cookie, make one request, move to a different ip, ...
inigyou 4 hours ago|||
Why are you serving new cookies to someone who already has a cookie?
sgsjchs 48 minutes ago||
It discards the cookie after one request and appears as a new user.
jay_kyburz 6 hours ago|||
If you are discovering urls you have to wait for a previous request to finish. The rate limit should work. Requests without a cookie wait 2 seconds. Request with cookies can only make human scale number of requests per second? (1?)

If you have a thousands of IP addresses, and you know all the urls you want to request in advance, you can just request them all simultaneously I guess.

The next more advanced version is that URLs are unique to your cookie.

Users can't share urls anymore, but it might be a tradeoff worth making. Unique urls for each user.

You could probably still make this work, if you share your url with another user, they get the page, but heavily rate limited like a regular no cookie request. (a cookie url mismatch gets the rate limited version of the page)

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