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Posted by meetpateltech 16 hours ago

iPhone 18 Pro and iPhone 18 Pro Max(www.apple.com)
364 points | 397 comments
quinncom 14 hours ago|
I love that it has a feature to prove images came from the real world:

> Users can now prove the authenticity of a photo taken on iPhone 18 Pro models with Apple Reference Image, powered by the new sensor in the Main camera that can sign every pixel it sees. When a photo is taken in the new Reference mode, the camera captures signed sensor data that Private Cloud Compute develops into an unalterable reference image.5 Reference images can be viewed in the Photos app alongside the main image, like a digital negative, to visually compare the two assets and determine if any edits were made. APIs are available in iOS, iPadOS, and macOS 27 for third-party apps to enable viewing of these reference images.

andrewmutz 14 hours ago||
Can't I just point my camera at an AI generated image? And it will get the stamp of authenticity?
dabinat 13 hours ago|||
It would be great if they could use the LiDAR scanner to sign a depth map of the scene in front of the camera. It would show if you photographed a flat image.
bayindirh 12 hours ago|||
The sensor already uses phase detection autofocus. You can create a depth map out of it. iPhone X used its dual cameras and that phase data for depth maps.
koolala 12 hours ago||||
They could use the camera aperture to take a second photo and calculate blur.
ks2048 12 hours ago||||
If that became popular, the AIs would learn how to generate a realistic depth map along with any generated image.
lokar 12 hours ago|||
How would that work? I thought the premise here is that you can fool the apple camera by taking a (very carefully aligned) picture of a still image (printed out).

A depth map from the apple camera (again, signed) would show that the entire image had the same distance from the camera.

ks2048 3 hours ago||
You're right. I think my comment above doesn't make sense - it wouldn't help in this case.
Gigachad 11 hours ago||||
The photos are cryptographically signed in the apple image pipeline so it's not as simple as just AI generating something. That said, I can't see how this is any different to all the other times we have embedded crypto keys in consumer hardware where eventually someone finds a way to extract the key and the whole thing is busted open.
jaggederest 10 hours ago||
Given the whole private cloud bit, I am assuming they keep the private keys server side and never let them out.
monocasa 8 hours ago|||
I think there's a chain of trust. The sensor signs raws, and the private cloud takes signed raws, does minimal processing so they're at least coherent, and re signs that output (maybe even including the original signed raw as well in the image file).
lxgr 2 hours ago||||
How would the server know that the request is coming from a real iPhone?

This is a pretty standard application of trusted computing and can be done entirely on the iPhone. A server would only possibly be needed for anonymization (while retaining key revocation capabilities if a key does end up leaking), but there are serverless ways to do even that (TPMs have supported these for a while now).

jaggederest 1 hour ago||
It wouldn't, but you could validate that a particular picture was created at a particular time, and had not changed, for example, especially with metadata that you may not want to share but that establishes certain parameters like gps coordinates. A lock, rather than an end-to-end pixel signature, which shows what was contemporaneous rather than exact provenance. If an event happened on day 0000-00-00 00:00:00am, but your photo was taken at some other time, it casts doubt.

I think a big part of validation for things like these are just "could it have been modified since Z event happened", because Z was not something people paid attention to before.

Gigachad 10 hours ago|||
That's a good point, You might still be able to trick the cloud to sign your photos, but that's something they could patch in updates without losing control of the key. They could have the server only sign photos taken on the latest ios version.
jaggederest 10 hours ago||
And honestly you could have a similar antitampering oracle that was at least obscured, in terms of "we've detected tampering but won't tell you how or why", which is frustrating but I have to imagine that 99.9%+ of images are clean.
embedding-shape 11 hours ago|||
Even simpler, a 3D printed relief with an image "stamped" on it, now you effectively have a 3D image.
bayindirh 11 hours ago||
…and the PDAF data will show how shallow it is.
embedding-shape 11 hours ago||
... don't make it so shallow then. Perfectly possible in a consumer-friendly 3D printer for a face or even human body if you have lots of time for the prints.
ceejayoz 8 hours ago|||
You’re well on the way to 1:1 replicas at this point. Next you’ll need to match the thermal signature and the exact weather in the sky for the time at that location.
golem14 1 hour ago||||
Sounds like Rincewind's spell from the Octavo.
lxgr 2 hours ago||||
Then take and sign a one-second video and you’re adding a few orders of magnitude of complexity again.
dylan604 10 hours ago|||
but what are we really trying to solve here. you're suggesting a helluvalota work for what purpose?
dwattttt 10 hours ago||||
The 'ol "analog hole". Never been able to patch that gap.
lxgr 2 hours ago||
Yes, if your adversary can generate a high-fidelity 3D moving replica of a scene, they can deceive you that it’s real. But can they really?
w4der 13 hours ago||||
And what if you take a picture across a IR-filtered window?
apetresc 12 hours ago||
Then you won’t be able to prove it was a genuine photograph? That sounds like the right failure mode.
FreJunofficial1 4 hours ago||||
That's a cool idea.
mikeaskew4 12 hours ago||||
Pretty sure it does that already.
selcuka 11 hours ago|||
One can 3d-print the AI generated image and photograph that. /s
bl4ckm0r3 2 hours ago||||
that's an authentic photo, not the subject/image, the photo is authentic.
dymk 12 hours ago||||
It will look like you took a picture of a screen or print out
michaelt 11 hours ago||
People have constructed video walls so high resolution they can film TV series in front of them and to an audience it's indistinguishable from a real set. It's extremely cost-effective for things like space fantasy that needs lots of exotic-looking backdrops, apparently.

It may not be in reach for you and I - but within reach of anyone with the budget to run a 'bot farm'

cedilla 10 hours ago|||
The high resolution video wall is quite simple. The hard part and why this has not been done earlier is that for filming, they had to synchronize the rendered background with the movement of the camera.
spartanatreyu 9 hours ago||
Movement is solved by tracking the camera's position and projecting the background from there.

Proof of captured image with hardware-based-attestation can be increased by adding extra information besides the RGB channels, like depth mapping (which a projected screen wouldn't be able to fake), and eventually light field recording (plenoptic imaging, e.g. Lytro).

dgently7 4 hours ago||||
also no, even in the high rez video walls its still possible to tell. maybe to an "audience" no but there are lots of fundamental flaws with video walls that make them not the same as filming it for real. all of those flaws show up in the final image and could be detected.

things like color rendering, sharpness, screen door/morie, motion blur, and yup even good ole depth queues in the lens system all show up as artifacts.

case in point, outside of a few specific niche cases like the mandalorian, that virtual production video wall thing is not actually being used all that much because of the amount of post shoot cleanup required to fix all those issues, it wasnt actually that much cheaper and its not really better either. especially when you factor in how hard it is to shoot that way.

michaelt 2 hours ago||
> things like color rendering, sharpness, screen door/morie, motion blur, and yup even good ole depth queues in the lens system all show up as artifacts.

Pre-AI fake videos sidestep this sort of issue by lowering the video quality.

Add some motion blur, some camera shake, some poor lighting, the camera being slightly out of focus, and make the video 720p instead of 4k.

dymk 8 hours ago|||
If they’re spending millions on faking an image, okay fine. That’s clearly not the security model intended for this feature though.
InvertedRhodium 8 hours ago||
How large and pixel dense does a display need to be for it to convincingly fill an image sensor?

I suspect it’s significantly less than millions.

llukas 13 hours ago||||
Stamp only proves you did the photo and probably some metadata like when where etc.

It helps but doesn't solve credibility issue.

intrasight 11 hours ago|||
The credibility comes from who took the photo. The next logical and easy step is for this metadata to flow to the user agent. I'll know that it was taken by a legit journalist photographer. And id not, I can have my user agent make it fuzzy or replaced with a kitten photo.
Gigachad 11 hours ago|||
I think this is where we are headed. This feature seems useless on it's own since someone will eventually find a way to extract the key from the iphone and sign any image. But if they could make it so every iphone uses it's own key and the photos show "Taken by xyz" and it's linked to their icloud or identity somehow. That way images shared around will still be able to be linked to a source that you can choose to trust and the viewer can know it wasn't modified from what that person shot.

Then we might move to an age where photos which were not signed by someone will be treated as fake.

mikestorrent 9 hours ago|||
You may have forgotten that the world is driven by screenshots, and so a screenshot of a picture with the `(X) Verified by Apple to be Joe Schmoe` tacked on will be just as good as real verification for a lot of people.

What we need is almost something like the classic "press C+A+D to log in" or the idea of "above the browser pane"... something an image cannot show you unless it's legit. Perhaps a personal thumbprint icon that is different for each viewer, so you know its your device telling you that something is real and not just some mock fake thing?

intrasight 10 hours ago||||
I don't think we'll treat them as fake but they would probably undergo more scrutiny - perhaps in a crowd-sourced manner that provides an overall score of probable legitimacy.
teaearlgraycold 9 hours ago||||
Phones all have hardware security modules with keys stored inside. That will absolutely be in use for this new feature.
cavoirom 6 hours ago|||
You actually think the Secure Enclave is useless.
nonethewiser 8 hours ago|||
Right. All of your pictures will include identifying information. Same will happen for LLM generated text.
lokar 12 hours ago|||
what is it missing then?
thallium205 6 hours ago||||
I bet there exists data from the 3 cameras to represent some depth to the image.
nonethewiser 8 hours ago||||
Yes.
QuantumNomad_ 1 hour ago|||
> Users can now prove the authenticity of a photo taken on iPhone 18 Pro models with Apple Reference Image, powered by the new sensor in the Main camera that can sign every pixel it sees.

Will this also work with third-party camera apps like ProCam?

https://www.procamapp.com/

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/procam-5/id6787737491?mt=8

sheepybloke 12 hours ago|||
On the opposite side, this read to me like there was so much image processing going on in the background and off device that they felt like they needed to prove that there was a real image backing the creation, and that it was not all AI. It really begs the question of what the extent is of image processing.
Gigachad 11 hours ago||
The iphone image pipeline is mostly just playing with exposure and color, things that we widely regard as fair game in editing. Where the line was crossed was magic eraser and reframe where the iphone is straight up making objects in the image.
whimsicalism 9 hours ago||
there is definitely some generative pixel stuff in the iOS pipeline as i've noticed garbled deepdream-esque letters when zooming before
Gigachad 9 hours ago||
That could be a result of a failed exposure stack. Phone sensors and lenses suck for light gathering so they have to take multiple photos and merge them together to create one that's less noisy. Occasionally you get artifacts where the merge failed.

It's still distinct from actual AI generation imo.

Lockal 1 hour ago|||
> I love that it has a feature to prove images came from the real world

Congrats to Apple achieving nation-wide tracking, embedding some kind of yellow dots[1], but this time this time this is based on strong cryptography and non-removable, targeting people who don't use AI under the slogan "we are fighting AI fakes", but people still "love the feature".

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer_tracking_dots

knollimar 1 hour ago||
Are the yellow dots not opt in?
scq 44 minutes ago|||
If you have a colour laser printer, not only are the tracking dots not opt in, but there is no way to opt out.
knollimar 26 minutes ago||
I meant the metaphorical iphone ones
cavoirom 14 hours ago|||
Yes, this is really a "Pro" feature, while C2PA exists, not many consumer products have it, iPhone will be the game changer for reporters.
kllrnohj 11 hours ago||
Reporters who only capture pictures on an iPhone and not a "real" camera, and who also never need to edit the photo to crop off or obscure identifying information, innocent bystanders/victims, gory violence or nudity, etc...

The problem is real, but this solution seems to not really solve it in any practical sense.

cavoirom 7 hours ago|||
You want to do all that, then still can prove the picture is authentic. The editing history show what had been changed compare to the previous version, from the color adjustment to blur areas... it's not about preventing editing, it's about proving the authenticity when needed.
reaperducer 11 hours ago||||
Reporters who only capture pictures on an iPhone and not a "real" camera, and who also never need to edit the photo to crop off or obscure identifying information, innocent bystanders/victims, gory violence or nudity, etc...

So, 90% of photojournalism outside of the major cities, then.

drdrey 8 hours ago|||
you could do edits like crops in a way that preserves the signature using ZK proofs
bluber84 1 hour ago|||
This feature is not enabled in the eu
spacebanana7 13 hours ago|||
The weakness of this is that a person can take a picture of a high resolution screen or print.

We really need Apple to open up true depth APIs to make forgery non trivial.

apetresc 12 hours ago|||
I don’t know too much about image processing, but my intuition tells me that distinguishing a photo of a 3d scene from a photo of a photo of a 3d scene is a much easier engineering problem than distinguishing it from an AI-generated diffusion. So even just reducing the problem to the former is still a worthy accomplishment.
awkwardleon 12 hours ago|||
Agree with the weakness, but the benefit of provenance is still there. You can't tell if the picture that person took is of an AI image, but there's some value in saying "I took this" and being able to prove it.
Gigachad 11 hours ago|||
I hope future social media presents this metadata so if someone claims a photo is from the BBC, it actually gets checked against the keys the BBC sign their photos with.
snypher 10 hours ago|||
How does this actually work though?

1) I see a photo online and doubt it's provenance

2) I contact the photographer and ask to see their cloud image (???!)

2a) I borrow someone's mac to download the image (.jpg?) and it can be verified on that?

whatever1 13 hours ago|||
I wish next year for videos too.

We really need it for journalism. Otherwise we will not know what is real and what fabricated with ai.

galkk 4 hours ago|||
lol, called it month ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49138302#49142011

Melatonic 6 hours ago|||
So does that mean only the main sensor can do this ?
FireBeyond 13 hours ago|||
Canon's original high end digital models had this as a feature, that your images could be digitally signed in-camera based on raw sensor data. Primarily for law enforcement. Obviously a far broarder use case, now.
no_time 3 hours ago|||
Feels like the only ones who'd benefit from this are AI companies that are afraid of tainting their post 2023 datasets with their own slop.

On the other hand if this becomes mandated by law I can see it become treacherous for endusers.

lxgr 2 hours ago||
It also sounds pretty useful for anyone involved in a lawsuit to be able to present photographic evidence again. I’m sure GenAI is already a big headache for forensics, and enforcing AI watermarks will clearly not be bulletproof.
Good4boothee 1 hour ago||
Will it ever work until a TPM like module is directly integrated into camera sensor? Older attempts of Nikon and Canon got broken, same had happened with C2PA implementation for Android - if it gets anywhere close to CPU it is insecure.
lxgr 6 minutes ago||
Yes, presumably there will be a cat and mouse game until the entire system including all peripherals has been brought into the trusted computing base, either physically or logically (usually with secured/authenticated communication). This has been the case for all applications of trusted computing.

Security is never a binary property, however, and can usually be better expressed in terms of how expensive it would be to subvert a given mechanism. "This image is either authentic or would have cost at least $x to fake" is already much more useful than nothing at all even without $x trending to infinity.

bilekas 6 hours ago|||
That's more of a software feature..
tclancy 9 hours ago|||
That smells like "show don't tell", but who knows.
siva7 10 hours ago|||
A mobile phone.. an internet communicator.. a music player.. don't you get it? well, steve, actually 18 years later it's a .. camera
ikr678 4 hours ago|||
Cynical take: A single photo to now consume up 50mb of cloud storage, adding to the demand for more data centers that supported the creation of this authenticity issue in the first place.
xattt 14 hours ago|||
*Not available in EU or China.

I wonder what the common thread is.

rock_artist 13 hours ago||
> I wonder what the common thread is.

Regulation.

For China I would assume like other services, if there's some cloud involved, it should be on Chinese soil and accessible to China.

For EU harder to guess, but again the lock-in with "Private Cloud Computing" feels related.

speedgoose 5 hours ago||
It could be because a digital signature could be use to track without consent.
dannyw 4 hours ago||
Nah, it’s an optional feature, so by using it you provide express consent. GDPR gives users more data ownership; GDPR does not stop you from choosing to do what you want with your data.

It’s likely DMA — Apple would be required to provide APIs for signing for 3rd party apps too.

lern_too_spel 12 hours ago|||
Finally. Android phones have been shipping with C2PA since last year, so it's great that the final holdout has capitulated, though with its own set of nonstandard tools.

https://c2paviewer.com/articles/samsung-galaxy-s25-c2pa

https://security.googleblog.com/2025/09/pixel-android-truste...

https://c2paviewer.com/supported-devices

nxc18 12 hours ago||
The Android version is useless though, TBD if Apple can do better.

https://www.da.vidbuchanan.co.uk/blog/android-c2pa.html

lern_too_spel 5 hours ago||
Indeed, on top of Google's implementation being a bad joke, it sounds like the C2PA specifications in general are a massive fail so far. https://arxiv.org/html/2604.24890v1

On the other hand, ignoring standards altogether is the wrong way to go because the ecosystem after capture won't be there.

Frost1x 10 hours ago||
How will this work against rehosted images on all the platforms people actually share photos from? It’s a good feature but many popular services apply metadata stripping and basic image adjustment before resharing. That seems like the place where people would actually want to verify authenticity.
cavoirom 6 hours ago||
It works for the author of the image who want to prove the authenticity, and the party that publishing the image who want to maintain the trust.
nateb2022 15 hours ago||
I would love to see some "pro" features hit the Pro or Pro Max. Something I've wanted for a while is the ability to have more than 2 active eSIMs; I think a dual modem would be really cool, maybe with some features targeting users in poor cell coverage/ spotty service areas.

Or feature Thunderbolt rather than normie USB-C so you can record 4/8K ProRes to an SSD, and power a multi monitor setup with your iPhone Pro. macOS would be sick. Or (waterproof) exposed PCIE lanes so 3rd parties can integrate an ecosystem of backpacks like how Pi Hats work.

Aurornis 11 hours ago||
> Or feature Thunderbolt rather than normie USB-C so you can record 4/8K ProRes to an SSD,

The old iPhone 17 Pro has USB 3.2 Gen 2, which is good for 10Gb/s.

You can already record 4K60 ProRes to an external SSD. This feature already existed for a year, so I assume you didn't actually need it?

> and power a multi monitor setup with your iPhone Pro. macOS would be sick.

I think you're looking for a MacBook Pro the size of an iPhone.

nomel 10 hours ago|||
The MacBook Neo runs an A18 Pro phone chip. It's appears to be all there and somewhat ready to give us something like DeX [1].

[1] https://www.samsung.com/us/support/owners/app/samsung-dex

mrheosuper 7 hours ago|||
10Gbps is 12 times slower than the maximum bw of TB5.

You could argue most people wont need that speed, but most people don't need pro phone too.

999900000999 6 hours ago||
Something else will drop the ball guaranteed.

Can you show me the workflow which uses this and has an iPhone as the bottleneck

mrheosuper 6 hours ago||
Moving my videos from ip to my TB ssd ?
eigen 6 hours ago||
are these videos larger than the iphone SSD or TB SSD DRAM buffer and will need to drop to NAND erase/write speed?
mrheosuper 6 hours ago||
No, but i dont understand your point ?
Scoundreller 15 hours ago|||
> I think a dual modem would be really cool, maybe with some features targeting users in poor cell coverage/ spotty service areas.

Can already do iMessage over satellite. Most “data” is download and I predict some satellite service that sends basic broadcasts (traffic, news, Text-to-speech podcasts) squeezed into a few mbps by pointing your phone at the sky (or a small cabled antenna for around the clock use). Would love to go carrier-less.

wang_li 13 hours ago|||
>Or feature Thunderbolt rather than normie USB-C so you can record 4/8K ProRes to an SSD,

My iphone 16 pro max can do 4K ProRes HDR or Log at 120 FPS when plugged into a SSD. If I had more builtin storage I could do it without the SSD. If you don't mind more dongling you can also have an external display along with the external SSD.

cavoirom 14 hours ago|||
Apple Reference Image is the new "pro" feature.
KermitTheFrog 13 hours ago||
*not so "pro" in EU and China
LoganDark 8 hours ago||
Well it apparently is so "pro" that it got regulated out of existence.
dzhiurgis 11 hours ago|||
Images that sync to mac photos app instantly via wifi rather than half day via icloud.
LoganDark 4 hours ago||
You can almost achieve this by setting a reminder to turn on "sync immediately" manually every single day (because Apple decided there should be no permanent or indefinite option, and went through the extra effort of making it timed simply for the sake of inconvenience).

I actually do this because it's the behavior I've wanted for years, and I care about it enough to go through the relentless annoyance.

jloawjelrjl 6 hours ago||
[dead]
ksec 15 hours ago||
I am actually quite excited on this iPhone 18 Pro. Seems to pack a a lot of exciting stuff. 2nm A20 Pro, C2. I wish they have N2 but I guess not. 2nd Generation Vapour Chamber. I thought I would have to wait another generation because Apple like to use new product features for two generation before moving on. And it seems this Vapour Chamber along with other heat desperation features are much better built. Much better Camera. And larger battery. With 60W charging that finally matches or closes to a lot of Android phone has been doing.

Never thought they would do it all within one update. In terms of hardware that is pretty much everything I wanted other than Silicon Battery.

The only thing that need radical change is iOS.

ivm 13 hours ago||
> The only thing that need radical change is iOS.

Please, not again.

– Sincerely yours mobile developer

RetpolineDrama 12 hours ago||
Introducing SwiftUI2: Every UI is a simple prompt, and all the underlying code is generated.
brokencode 10 hours ago||
I mean, isn’t that how like 90% of new SwiftUI apps are created these days? Just telling an AI what you want? Apple already can’t keep up with the review.
JAlexoid 6 hours ago||
If they can't keep up, that means that they're not using AI to do reviews
brokencode 5 hours ago||
Knowing how stingy Apple is, they’re probably still trying to get the expense approved.

That’s partially why they’re in the mess they’re in with AI. The CFO wouldn’t let them buy enough GPUs to train their models.

They needed all that money for more important expenses, like share buybacks, instead.

theplumber 11 hours ago|||
Besides a better camera what all this along with the past generations have so exciting ? I just fail to see a reason to upgrade. Maybe I am getting old?
LeBit 13 hours ago|||
Heat desperation?

I don’t think Siri is sentient yet.

jq-r 12 hours ago|||
I don’t understand why the Max version doesn’t have C2. Maybe supply constraints but I doubt it.
ralph84 3 hours ago||
It could be as simple as Apple committed to a certain volume with Qualcomm before they were certain they could get mmWave working so they have to keep using Qualcomm modems somewhere while they burn down the commitment.
testaburger 1 hour ago||
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ShinyLeftPad 12 hours ago||
> The only thing that need radical change is iOS.

Personally iSO 26 is so unbelievably glitchy, it's only not embarrasing because you know others spent $$$ on the same thing so everyone pretends it's fine.

josephg 11 hours ago|||
They seem to have ironed most of the problems now. You can disable liquid glass if you hate it, and as a result iOS 26 is nearly as good as the previous version. I’m running it on my iphone12. I hated it when it first came out. But it seems fine now.
ShinyLeftPad 6 hours ago|||
I don't know how you're using it. The most broken (so it needs to be restarted sometimes) is Podcasts, but Music, Safari, Settings etc have glaring visual glitches too.
josephg 6 hours ago||
Well, it might help that on day 1, I turned off the liquid glass effects in accessibility settings. At first there were several small layout / UI bugs that came from turning liquid glass off. But it seems fine now.

I don't use the apple podcasts or music apps. (Overcast and Spotify for me). I haven't run into any serious problems.

rightnutwingjob 16 minutes ago|||
iPhone 15 Plus:

I have Reduced Transparency, Reduce Motion, and Prefer Cross-Fade Transitions, all enabled. You have to have Liquid Glass set to Clear for Reduce Transparency.

I do use the Apple Podcasts app, but YouTube Music and DI.FM Radio apps for music.

I never see any rendering issues / glitches, and the UI is smooth & snappy.

ShinyLeftPad 6 hours ago|||
I'm not sure if you're an iphone user or did you root your iphone?

It's NOT possible to turn LG off in iOS 26. It is possible to reduce transparency and motion (i tried with and without enabling those and it's broken anyway).

netheril96 7 hours ago|||
Really? iOS Guided Access is bugged on the whole 26, and I have been encountering system freeze many times on 26, never before on any other versions.
solarkraft 12 hours ago|||
27 is really a lot better, even on an iPhone 13.

Yet that’s still just repairing what they previously broke. I still can’t listen to music AND listen to a voice memo or a video clip.

doubtfuluser 1 hour ago||
Sadly my 14 pro has a crack in the lower right screen, and the tele lense has some issue with fixing lens position / focus (? I hear some clickering and it doesn’t focus). Otherwise I would just stay another few years with it, now I’m going to upgrade - and yeah I’ll stay with Apple. I have some devices quite a few years old by them and still working flawlessly.
millipede 13 hours ago||
The things we need to know most, RAM and Memory Bandwidth, are unfortunately missing from the release. Their absence doesn't bode well.
dgellow 13 hours ago||
What do you do with your phone that requires you to know the memory details? Genuine question, I have absolutely no idea how much memory my iPad or phone have and don’t see why I would need to know
WarmWash 13 hours ago|||
Running not-particularly-useful local models.
hombre_fatal 12 hours ago||||
To know what you're getting. No further reasons needed.
stingraycharles 4 hours ago||||
I want to know how it compared to what I currently have.
eagerpace 12 hours ago||||
Because I am buying a phone to use for the next 3 years and want to buy it based on the most important property of compute devices right now. I couldn't care less about the camera and the 13 random metrics that all look the same as every other camera announcement. I will happily take 96GB of RAM in my phone (and I know what that means) and would gladly allow you to make it 1.2mm thicker in the process.
dgellow 12 hours ago|||
You want a 96GB RAM phone and only plan to keep it 3 years? I cannot fathom the way some of you live. I have an iPhone SE from 2022 that I don’t expect to get rid of before at least 2-3 more years, meaning it would have been in use for 6-7y at minimum. And it’s perfectly comfortable to use, I’m not forcing myself in any way to keep it longer. And you’re talking about wanting a ridiculously expensive phone and only have it for 3 years? That sounds so wasteful and unnecessary
rightnutwingjob 6 minutes ago|||
If you keep a phone in good condition, the resale / trade-in value isn’t insignificant after 2 years.

The net price for a new phone then can be considered a relatively inexpensive hobby when looked at from a per week.

josephg 12 hours ago||||
I couldn’t agree more. I’m typing this on an iPhone 12, bought new 6 years ago. My phone still feels snappy. And it gets me through a whole day with 60%+ battery remaining. The only real complaint I have is that I only have the 64gb model. I need to delete things every time a software update comes out because of how bloated modern software has become. But the hardware is fantastic.

I have no idea how much ram my phone has. So long as apps run well, why would I care?

unlikelytomato 9 hours ago|||
It's about multitasking. RAM is the upgrade trigger for me. I'm so exhausted by developer introduced bloat in software such that almost every app fully reloads when switching. Devs ruin multitasking every few years until another RAM upgrade.
selcuka 11 hours ago|||
You're missing the important bit in the GP comment:

> the most important property of compute devices right now

Memory didn't matter when iPhone 12 was released, but these days it determines which local LLMs you can run on device. That's the point of that comment.

halJordan 12 hours ago||||
People sued apple for selling a device with no mention of ram and then apple released the next gen saying "this has more ram, you need to upgrade to it to use the features we advertised for last gen."

How about avoiding that scenario again? Is that a good enough reason? Being a diligent, informed consumer?

eagerpace 11 hours ago|||
I’m being hyperbolic. Sharing the amount of RAM seems table stakes with the current demand and failing to disclose it seems like the answer wouldn’t be positive.
apetresc 12 hours ago|||
What on earth would you do with an iOS device that has 96GB of RAM? You realize the last generation (i.e, the most powerful consumer phone in the world today) had 12 GB of RAM? You feel the need for eight times that amount?
lokar 12 hours ago|||
Number go up, I guess? A lot of people derive great satisfaction from ever larger (or sometimes smaller) number. But, uh, 8X is probably too much, need to spread that out over a few generations.
cortesoft 11 hours ago||||
They obviously want to run AI models on their phone.
apetresc 8 hours ago|||
Very obviously you get a Mac Studio for that, not a phone. (Oh, the 96GB Studio is almost $6000, you counter? Imagine how much it would cost in a phone form factor).

You can't possibly expect Apple to take that market segment seriously.

HDBaseT 10 hours ago|||
In theory it sounds alright, although in reality, the heat and power consumption make this less than ideal.

I am not sure single digit tk/s on weak model like ChatGPT OSS 20b @ Q3_K_M is going to be worthwhile.

Not to mention this has to be <0.01% of users who "want" to do this. The iPhone tooling would make it hard to even configure and spin up a local LLM.

LoganDark 8 hours ago|||
> the most powerful consumer phone in the world today

According to what? (I don't disagree, just curious)

o_m 13 hours ago||||
I only care about it because I'm waiting for a MacBook Neo with more than 8gb of memory.
josephg 11 hours ago|||
With the price of ram going up by 5x, I want to see our industry move in the opposite direction. Computers for regular people should go back to 4gb or even 2gb of ram, just to keep the prices sane. We should get software working well on those devices, just like it did a decade or two ago.

Small, memory efficient programs run better everywhere. It feels like theft to make consumers pay for our inefficient software. Electron / react on the desktop is such a rort.

nonethewiser 8 hours ago|||
>With the price of ram going up by 5x, I want to see our industry move in the opposite direction. Computers for regular people should go back to 4gb or even 2gb of ram, just to keep the prices sane.

Sure. Right along with Intel Core 2 Duo and Windows Vista.

dgellow 2 hours ago||
Modern CPUs and memory, just less ram
StilesCrisis 8 hours ago|||
I wonder how much we could reclaim just by going back to 32-bit pointers. If we're going back to 4GB it should be fine, right?
josephg 7 hours ago||
Yes and no. If I recall, 32 bit windows has a fixed allocation of 3gb for userland and 1gb for the kernel’s memory space. I think 32bit only really works well for memory sizes smaller than 4gb. It might not be worth it, given a lot of OSes are in the process of deprecating 32bit support.
wang_li 13 hours ago||||
I'm waiting for a software release for my iPhone 16 Pro Max that will let me plug in a dock that has an attached SSD, keyboard, mouse, and display, and an option to pop up on my phone to reboot into MacOS.

Also, if they make a neo 2 from the A19 with 12 GB that'd be cool.

josephg 11 hours ago|||
You’ll be waiting awhile. iPads have had desktop M-series CPUs for ages now, and you still can’t run macOS on an iPad.

It’s just a software restriction. I’m sure they have macOS running on iPhones and iPads internally, probably both through a VM and natively. But it’s very Apple to block this use case.

selectodude 11 hours ago|||
I’m pretty sure the efficiency cores in the A20 Pro have more juice than the performance cores in my M1 Pro laptop.
fatata123 5 hours ago|||
[dead]
swader999 10 hours ago||||
Ok Bill.
renecito 9 hours ago||||
sell another phone with "more than iPhone" and claim is better because "more X" right ?
bmandale 8 hours ago|||
People who actually care about their money often like to compare competing products and decide which one provides them the best value.
hk__2 52 minutes ago|||
The amount of RAM doesn’t tell you anything about "the best value". Bad software with a large amount of RAM provides less value than highly-optimized one with a lower amount of RAM, for example. This was the whole advantage of the iPhone at the beginning: not a lot of RAM (meaning less energy needed) but a highly-optimized OS that works well even with that constrained environment.
curiousgal 7 hours ago|||
> best value

> iPhone

Pick one.

runjake 13 hours ago|||
Based on supply chain leaks, it's pretty safe to assume 12 GB memory with up to 100GB/sec memory bandwidth at best.

The A19 Pro had 12 GB and was around 77GB/sec memory bandwidth for reference. If I was a betting man, I'd say the memory bandwidth on the A20 Pro is the same.

SirMaster 13 hours ago|||
But they said the memory bandwidth was double the previous generation.
halJordan 12 hours ago||
And here we are back to the crux. Sure would be nice if the released material was verifiable instead of "trust me shitstick"
josephg 11 hours ago||
Why? What do you do on your phone that makes you care about memory bandwidth?
bel8 10 hours ago|||
in 2026? LLM performance, for one.
mrheosuper 7 hours ago|||
everything. Faster memory, fast processing, making everything smoother, and you can idle faster.
quentindanjou 13 hours ago||||
If I didn't dream it, I think their presentation said something like 50% increase so you should be quite right probably around ~110GB/sec
carstn 13 hours ago|||
Rumors suggested a wider memory bus on A20 Pro.
ErneX 11 hours ago|||
12GB of ram and double the memory the bandwidth over the previous model.
reaperducer 11 hours ago||
The things we need to know most, RAM and Memory Bandwidth, are unfortunately missing from the release. Their absence doesn't bode well.

Since 1984, Apple has targeted regular people, not spec nerds. You're not the market.

robocat 10 hours ago||
Regular people optimise for silly numbers too.

Threadcount, Watts, cubic inches: different products use different misleading measures.

afavour 15 hours ago||
That’s certainly an iPhone, alright.

Apple basically need to release a new model every year to fit the phone upgrade cycle so I suppose it’s not that surprising to see one with so few compelling features. Maybe next year.

MattDamonSpace 14 hours ago||
Incremental changes year/year to a mature product line means if you skip a couple years you get a BIG upgrade
nobleach 15 hours ago|||
> the most advanced camera in an iPhone

I mean, I can't remember the last time they DIDN'T say that. Variable aperture is kinda cool I guess. 256Gigs of storage basically means everyone's going to have to upgrade their iCloud storage monthly spend just to back this thing up. I've stopped sending my camera roll to iCloud just to save on space.

otherjason 15 hours ago|||
Apple events are full of these meaningless statements, which always drive me crazy. Of course it's the "best iPhone Apple has ever made." If it wasn't, then wouldn't I be better off buying an older model?
paxys 13 hours ago|||
Just once I want the CEO to go up on stage and say “this year’s model isn’t all that great tbh”.
Den_VR 13 hours ago||
That’s the open for an actually amazing year.
nobleach 14 hours ago||||
I haven't been this excited since Dodge released their new Caravan... or Ubuntu released their new orange and purple UI...
insaneirish 13 hours ago||||
> I've stopped sending my camera roll to iCloud just to save on space.

This is an interesting choice. Photos from my phone would literally be the last thing I ever turned off backup for.

To each their own...

nobleach 12 hours ago|||
Oh I back them up to Immich self-hosted. I just stopped paying Apple.
insaneirish 6 hours ago||
> Oh I back them up to Immich self-hosted. I just stopped paying Apple.

Which means this original comment is somewhat disingenuous: "256Gigs of storage basically means everyone's going to have to upgrade their iCloud storage monthly spend just to back this thing up."

Clearly there is another option (as evidenced by your own behavior). But let's not pretend that option is free, either.

brewdad 12 hours ago|||
Agreed. The photo backup is so seamless. I’ve been documenting my electronics and other possessions for insurance purposes and in anticipation of a move. It’s been so easy to go around the house taking photos of serial numbers and such with the better camera on my phone. Then I grab my iPad and update the spreadsheet. Nothing needed to happen on my end, the photos are just there for my iPad to access and as later proof if I ever need it.
nicbou 2 hours ago||||
USB-C and the 5x lens made me switch to iOS.

Likewise the 6th gen iPad Mini is what I was waiting for to get a tablet to sketch.

Sometimes a device hits just right.

drop_star 11 hours ago||||
>I've stopped sending my camera roll to iCloud just to save on space.

how do you backup your photos when the phone gets full. I dont have a mac and the process is excruciating. Also the formats get messed up so some photos become unusable. I stopped taking 'live' photos because of this.

ValentineC 6 hours ago|||
Not the parent, but Google Photos has been decent as a secondary backup. They even backup Live Photos now.

The two formats I've found that they don't back up accurately are rotated photos (if one's a stickler for "originals") and cropped screenshots (JPEG instead of PNG). Possibly the sidecar files for edits too.

sampullman 4 hours ago||
Rotation data isn't included in the file, or it just doesn't display with the correct orientation?

Sometimes Google photos shows the wrong orientation for my pixel photos/videos but it's just a display issue.

ValentineC 4 hours ago||
[dead]
intrasight 8 hours ago||||
Is handled by Synology DS File app. Is what I've done for 6 years. I don't send photos to iCloud.
Lucasoato 11 hours ago|||
There’s this MacOS native application called Image Capture, use it to backup 100GB of photos. I then partitioned the photo by year and 7zipped them with encryption.
dylan604 10 hours ago||
You missed the salient details: "I dont have a mac"

Everything you stated to is useless to the person you replied.

edgarvaldes 9 hours ago||
Maybe he interpreted the "how do you backup" as a particular question directed to him, not a general one.
WarmWash 13 hours ago||||
Camera quality actually topped out a decade ago or so, and now it's become all post-processing trends that define "best".

Not unlike the "Best jacket of the season" being the one that is most fashionable as opposed to the most functional.

Gigachad 11 hours ago|||
This is not even close to true. I took a bunch of photos side by side with the iphone 13 pro and the 17 pro. The 17 pro was unmistakably much better, particularly on the telephoto, it wasn't even close. There was a very clear improvement in detail and sharpness, and not in a crunchy post processing way, the sensor is simply larger and higher resolution.

Now I think all the iphone cameras still suck compared to an actual camera, but the improvement over the last 10 years has been dramatic.

luqtas 13 hours ago||||
soon we'll have a like amount predictor connected with your personal assistant talking with your social media
kingkongjaffa 13 hours ago|||
You say that, but I've bought the non-pro iphones the last few generations (13, 15 currently) and consistently wanted a better camera, so this upgrade cycle I'll probably shell out for the 18 pro.
FireBeyond 13 hours ago|||
And it's not even that they said that, I get marketing spiel but one the actual phrases was, emphasis his, not mine:

"MASSIVE improvements in Camera". Where? Evolution, refinement, sure. Massive? Hm.

sleight42 6 hours ago||
You can always buy the $2000 edition. Or give Apple the finger. I'm leaning toward the latter.
sevenseacat 5 hours ago||
That's the iPhone 18, over here
fiatpandas 6 hours ago||
Still on a 12 Pro Max, which I bought near the original launch. It is in need of its first replacement battery. I’m very curious to see how much snappier it feels with this next iOS release which is focused a bunch on performance; in addition to a new battery, since I believe my iOS is throttling performance given the health.
nitin7 2 minutes ago||
I use a 14 Pro Max and the battery capacity is down to 75%
napolux 1 hour ago|||
Changed my 14 PRO battery last week. See you @ iPhone 22
hutattedonmyarm 2 hours ago|||
Still using my 12 Pro Max as well. Battery is still okay-ish on mine. Not good, but I don't have to actively worry about it. Will be looking forward to all the fancy new features when I replace it in 3-4 years
mmahemoff 6 hours ago|||
I still use a 13 Pro Max for travel. Incredible longevity. The only downside is it requires a battery pack to last a full day but those are slim and compact now. I intend to replace the battery soon since it still has 2-3 years left as a backup.

It will probably keep most of its value too, if hardware price inflation continues.

sevenseacat 5 hours ago|||
I still have my 11. The battery is garbage on it, but everything is still totally fine. Haven't upgraded to iOS 26 though...
sleight42 6 hours ago||
13 Pro here. Just upgraded my battery. May go another year or two at this rate.

Always said that I didn't see a reason to upgrade once I had 5G UW

fiatpandas 6 hours ago||
Yeah I tend to squeeze the life out of my Apple purchases. iPhone 4s -> 7 -> 12 Pro Max. And still on a 2017 MBP at home, running Sequoia via Open Core Patcher.
meyum33 1 hour ago||
The non-max 18 Pro getting 17 Pro Max battery is quite a great leap, no? This is actually the most surprising announcement today, given how Duo was anticipated.
bilekas 6 hours ago||
I'm finding it really hard to justify buying a new iPhone. They're so expensive these days for marginal improvements that seems if you're not an avid photo taker/media maker you don't get much back from.
otterley 3 hours ago||
It makes a lot more sense to purchase one if you consider their residual value when you sell it to upgrade later. A typical Android phone depreciates much more quickly than an iPhone. My three-year-old iPhone 15 Pro is still worth $500 or more on the open market--about half of what I spent. That's only $166/year.

The downside is that you need more money up front to purchase it.

Marsymars 4 hours ago|||
TBH I don't think I've ever bought a new phone because there was something new and fancy that I could justify. Every phone I've bought has been because my previous phone stopped receiving software updates, or in the case of my Pixel 6a, had a hooped battery.
hobo123 4 hours ago|||
Then don't. Isn't the whole point of long support cycles that you can keep using your phone for 5 years +, if it serves you well? (typing this from an S22)
zarzavat 4 hours ago||
The marginal improvements add up over time. Most people upgrade every few years, amortized over a 3 year upgrade cycle it's not really that expensive.
mcculley 30 minutes ago|
Will they figure out how to fit the new C2 cellular modem into a MacBook Pro?
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