Top
Best
New

Posted by vertigoruntime 13 hours ago

Astra for Law(openai.com)
472 points | 506 commentspage 2
msy 9 hours ago|
So OpenAI is partnering with Latham Watkins, Freshfields is partnering with Anthropic and Kleiner Perkins is building their own. It'll be interesting to see which wins out here, I don't see how those partnerships can end well for the law firms unless they're making an assumption they'll be sucked dry of USP but the revenue split from the AI labs will make up for it. Why would I pay a premium for Latham Watkins when every other firm can get their expertise and experience in a subscription, and add their own on top?
dzonga 12 hours ago||
open-ai have proven they can make good / decent models but business strategy is just spray and pray.

they need to pick a lane and optimize for it. coz at their size they can't serve the application layer (a.i startups who can fine-tune models will eat their lunch)

if they gonna do a consumer play - then go ham on that.

otherwise they're gonna get caught in the dreaded middle valley.

tuesdaynight 12 hours ago||
They have a lot of compute, so I think it makes sense to spray and see what works. Anthropic is limited in that regard, and focused in coding/tech, but OpenAI don't need to do the same. They even got the lead without having to focus in coding only, which is remarkable.
estetlinus 12 hours ago|||
Do they still do Atlas, the web browser? They are indeed throwing shit at the wall, seeing what stick.
scrollop 12 hours ago||
a la Google.
noir_lord 11 hours ago|||
Google went to that model after they had a massive cash cow though.

You can afford to play silly buggers when you have dumpster trucks of money backing up to your door every day see also: Meta.

Tanjreeve 11 hours ago|||
I think the comparison is unfair. Google had/have a product that was 10X better than anything else at the point of release (search then chrome). And they have several money making products like YouTube and android that are either singular or in a duopoly.

OpenAI doesn't have any of these things. They have products that they're paying for customers when the market they're in is rapidly converging on fighting for API reasoning as part of enterprise systems and fighting a race to the bottom for fickle consumer solutions that will be eaten by open source once they have to make money.

Maybe they had a brief window for dominance of information search (or maybe it was only ever going to last as long as Google releasing all their internal research) and maybe they had a brief moment of monopoly till Anthropic got going but theyre not in the same dominance position as Google.

jackb4040 11 hours ago|||
They can't be seen to commit to strongly to a specific product experience, because if they are understood as a regular tech product business that has way different financial scaling considerations than "superintelligent everything-factory"

I suspect that half-assed announcements like this are a result of different people internally with conflicting incentives resulting in a split-the-baby solution.

epolanski 11 hours ago||
Enterprise is eventually get caught (if it isn't already) by the Microsoft/Google. Because with office/teams/suite they were already in every enterprise, and that just added a new tool to existing offerings.

Provisioning and contracts and data retention was just an extension to review of existing ones.

Nobody serious is going to risk sending sensible data to OpenAI/Anthropic, etc because "the benchmarks have shown +8% performance there and +2% there". Irrelevant.

racetozero 55 minutes ago||
Legal domain is a challenge for most firms, even ours. This is a true game changer even if it looks a bit slop style in the output, the immediate uplift is quite massive.

The domain remains hard due to the lack of availability of high quality LLM-ready data providers in legal space.

claaams 5 hours ago||
Can you imagine the sort of corruption that is possible here? Like if you have a lawsuit against someone or some entity that openai or their investors have business with...
Vachyas 10 hours ago||
The most interesting part about this to me was how they bench/compare it, like in the example with Fable:

  "Given the same prompt, Astra for Law returned two closely matching precedents; in the litigation example, Claude Fable 5.1 returned a holding that had been reversed on appeal, while in the transactional example it reported finding no such case."
It made me wonder if a good deal of law is about finding a way to work in statements with clear precedents without your opposition noticing and then later drawing upon them in court (as settled precedents, in your favor) after the opposition (perhaps implicitly) accepted it. That would clarify a lot about why some lawyers need to spend so much time pouring over and memorizing past cases (even ones that are only tangentially related); because anything they miss could be used as a potential trojan horse by the opponent.

If this is true that must mean there are a good deal of cases settled using precedent "gotchas" where both sides knew that without the "load-bearing" precedent the outcome would've definitely been the opposite. (i.e precedents almost always trump even valid arguments)

boredumb 12 hours ago||
memes and snark aside, can you use this to create legitimate terms and contracts for my products and if I do who is getting sued when it is wrong?
dolebirchwood 12 hours ago||
> who is getting sued when it is wrong?

You. Don't take legal advice from a word calculator.

kingstnap 12 hours ago|||
As opposed to taking advice from the glucose wetware?
Ajedi32 11 hours ago|||
Yes, because glucose wetware can be held liable for malpractice if it gives you nonsensical advise.
animal_spirits 12 hours ago||||
Wetware is a new phrase that both horrifies me and makes me crack up in laughter :)
notahacker 12 hours ago|||
The glucose wetware will actually fight your case...
echelon 12 hours ago|||
The business value will be when platforms can underwrite their LLMs' legal products.

That will be a decacorn product or more.

mcmcmc 12 hours ago||
That or a hydrogen balloon of financial engineering
binlog 11 hours ago|||
The product isn’t meant for you or me it is for lawyers. If you can’t take on personal liability for a badly written contract then you shouldn’t be using it.
reticulates 12 hours ago|||
Solved without AI https://commonpaper.com

https://commonpaper.com/standards

ympb121 9 hours ago||
https://commonpaper.com/product/ai-agent/
Thaxll 12 hours ago|||
Same for SWE when pushing code they don't understand.
raincole 12 hours ago|||
> can you use this to create legitimate terms

I don't think you can. What I get from this article is that this is not a product they're going to sell to average consumers.

gr_norm 12 hours ago|||
I'd expect they could indemnify you against hallucinations or similar if this gets good enough for that to be a very rare occurrence? Or you could buy insurance on it that's cheaper than hiring a lawyer (not a high bar to clear). I wouldn't rely on it currently, though.
huseyinkeles 12 hours ago|||
when you shoot someone with a gun, who gets sued? you? or the gun manufacturer?
petcat 12 hours ago|||
You will be the one getting sued. It's just a tool.
hackmack10 12 hours ago|||
I already use them for that, they are pretty excellent at it. Much better than the terms of use generator products that used to exist. That said, nobody cares to sue your business for the most part until you're big enough to be worth it. By that time, you'll have a team of legal analyst to assist you... or agents should I say.

Then again, nobody will have money to buy anything at this rate, so in all liklihood, this is a total non-issue.

dboreham 10 hours ago|||
You thought you could sue your lawyer when a contract they drafted turns out to not mean what you thought it meant?
boredumb 43 minutes ago||
In the US at least if a lawyer screws up a contract beyond what a competent lawyer would and causes financial harm they can be sued.
epolanski 11 hours ago|||
You can create terms and contracts even if you're a 7 year old with no AI.

And yes, even contracts drafted for millions of $ have oversights and unlawful or unenforceable terms.

charlesdenault 12 hours ago||
You are.
medion 4 hours ago||
Recently was involved in legal matters requiring lawyers - I used OpenAI extensively for research, advice etc - I have to be honest, much of it was completely useless - the real world outcome with lawyers in the room was very different from what OpenAI was spitting out.
popupeyecare 6 hours ago||
In an utopian society, lawyers are an unnecessary profession. Laws should be clear and simple so the common person can be their own "lawyer". LLMs help with that goal.
palmotea 4 hours ago||
> In an utopian society, lawyers are an unnecessary profession. Laws should be clear and simple so the common person can be their own "lawyer".

Not really. Modern society is complicated, and law is a technology that is a reflection of the complexity of society.

To make an analogy: you wouldn't say that "in a utopian society, engineers are an unnecessary profession. Buildings should be clear and simple enough that a common person can be their own structural engineer," because that would mean that building technology would no longer handle a lot of the problems we expect it to handle. It wouldn't be utopia, it would be primitivism.

> LLMs help with that goal.

Not really. What they'd actually do is help them produce output they don't understand and lack the competence to evaluate.

joedwin 5 hours ago||
what profession you need in utopian society?
noisy_boy 4 hours ago||
Poets.
keeda 12 hours ago||
Any lawyers here who have used AI agents heavily for their work? From what I've heard, they're currently very good at searching, analyzing and drafting documents like contracts and patents, but some say they suck at interpreting the law.
droidjj 11 hours ago||
I’m sure there are a wide variety of experiences out there, but here’s my perspective as a former biglaw associate and current solo litigator:

I have had some success using frontier models from the last 6ish months, but only when I can break up my work into discrete and verifiable tasks. For example, I had ~15k pages of discovery I needed to dig through for a summary judgment motion. Instead of just asking Claude to find the best evidence, I asked it first to run a clean, high quality OCR pass (it was almost entirely PDFs). Then I had it generate embeddings and write some reusable python scripts to make keyword and semantic searching easy for agents. While I was writing the brief, I would routinely ask my agent (Claude Code) to use both keyword and semantic searching to find the best evidence supporting whatever assertion I was trying to make. I trusted it because there were traces I could follow.

In other cases/situations, I’ve tried just giving a model access to all the docs and saying “write a brief arguing X,” but it’s always terrible at this. It writes briefs with lots of evocative jargon and rhetorical flourish, but a low signal-to-noise ratio.

Again, I’m sure others’ experiences differ based on workflow, legal area, etc.

Digory 7 hours ago|||
Agreed. Six months ago, it was basically a gloried grammarly.

But lately, I’ve been taking hints from the “company brain” models, where it develops a running model of the case, and assesses each new piece as it comes in and updates the file.

I’ve also been using “Ralph Wiggum”-type models where you pass letter or contract drafts back and forth between agents with different goals (rules compliance, grammar, conciseness, ai slop detector, an opposing counsel critic, etc.). After a few rounds, it’s not perfect — but I start with a very good first draft in my hands.

shimman 9 hours ago||||
What are you using for semantic searching?
qingcharles 11 hours ago|||
They are excellent, especially the latest models. That said, (a) I wouldn't feel safe filing something without a real lawyer looking at it; (b) it can't (easily? legally?) do oral arguments for you; and (c) a lot can happen in the hallways outside the courtroom to move a case forward that the AI can't easily do.
NoboruWataya 10 hours ago|||
In my experience it basically doesn't even try to interpret the law. It just summarises the publicly available law/guidance out there and, if there is a question about how to interpret some provision, might set out the arguments for each interpretation. It doesn't really take a position. It is pretty good at drafting though. (Legora)
keeda 9 hours ago||
> It doesn't really take a position.

Interesting! In other unrelated domains, models seem more willing to take a position. It may be nuanced, but they do tend to take a stance. I think it's good that it leaves the interpretation to humans, but I wonder if this is also some sort of a guardrail to minimize liability...

amelius 11 hours ago|||
Probably because the AI was also trained on HN comments.
john_strinlai 11 hours ago||
worse, it was trained on reddit law comments
shicholas 11 hours ago|||
We do and it saves so much time. Of course human judgment is needed but it’s like cooking with someone else doing the mise en place.
TomGarden 12 hours ago|
I wonder if Lawslop is gonna become a mainstream expression. Anyone got a better term?
keeda 12 hours ago||
Slawp?
TomGarden 12 hours ago|||
Haha clever
krm01 11 hours ago|||
Drop the s and p. Just law.

It’s cleaner.

endymi0n 11 hours ago|||
law-bearing
williamcotton 11 hours ago|||
What do you mean by “lawslop”?
samtp 10 hours ago||
You know exactly what they mean. But if somehow you miraculously don't there are hundreds of stories like this:

https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/lawyer-state-farm-f...

williamcotton 10 hours ago||
Aren’t hallucinations different than slop?

So no, I don’t know what they mean.

samtp 10 hours ago||
hallucinations are a subset of slop
williamcotton 10 hours ago||
So is there other “lawslop” or is it just hallucinations in this context?
samtp 10 hours ago||
You must have a greater critical thinking ability than what you are showing now.
williamcotton 10 hours ago||
Why be so unkind?
samtp 10 hours ago||
Apologies for the candor but you're being willfully obtuse.
williamcotton 9 hours ago||
I’m honestly looking for an actual example of something other than hallucinations! There are no examples in this entire thread! It’s just cynicism.
samtp 8 hours ago||
I mean this is the first google result for AI law slop and it's not citing a hallucination:

https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/appeals-court-warns...

It's everywhere and not hard to find if you make even the most modest effort.

williamcotton 8 hours ago||
Ok, so, “gibberish” in this case?

Honestly, this word has lost all meaning, outside of perhaps “any use of AI”.

Well at least I know where team “lawslop” is coming from. Thanks, I guess?

samtp 7 hours ago||
Like I said before, you're being willfully dense in the context of this conversation.
john_strinlai 11 hours ago|||
i hope that someone can come up with something catchier than "thing-slop" or "slop-thing". the word has become basically meaningless from overuse.
epolanski 11 hours ago||
I love the slop word, to me it means effortless, average.

People confuse slop with "bad", but slop isn't bad per se, it only becomes bad when real effort was required.

samtp 8 hours ago|||
I mean the literal definition for slop as a noun does have a very negative connotation.

> broadly : a product of little or no value

> food waste (such as garbage) fed to animals

> excreted body waste

trollbridge 11 hours ago|||
Right. Pigs enjoy eating their slop. It’s not bad from their point of view.
samtp 8 hours ago||
Pig would much rather not eat slop. They are very intelligent animals.
epolanski 11 hours ago||
Slop?
More comments...