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Posted by vertigoruntime 14 hours ago

Astra for Law(openai.com)
486 points | 521 commentspage 3
TomGarden 13 hours ago|
I wonder if Lawslop is gonna become a mainstream expression. Anyone got a better term?
keeda 12 hours ago||
Slawp?
TomGarden 12 hours ago|||
Haha clever
krm01 12 hours ago|||
Drop the s and p. Just law.

It’s cleaner.

endymi0n 12 hours ago|||
law-bearing
williamcotton 12 hours ago|||
What do you mean by “lawslop”?
samtp 11 hours ago||
You know exactly what they mean. But if somehow you miraculously don't there are hundreds of stories like this:

https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/lawyer-state-farm-f...

williamcotton 11 hours ago||
Aren’t hallucinations different than slop?

So no, I don’t know what they mean.

samtp 11 hours ago||
hallucinations are a subset of slop
williamcotton 11 hours ago||
So is there other “lawslop” or is it just hallucinations in this context?
samtp 11 hours ago||
You must have a greater critical thinking ability than what you are showing now.
williamcotton 10 hours ago||
Why be so unkind?
samtp 10 hours ago||
Apologies for the candor but you're being willfully obtuse.
williamcotton 10 hours ago||
I’m honestly looking for an actual example of something other than hallucinations! There are no examples in this entire thread! It’s just cynicism.
samtp 9 hours ago||
I mean this is the first google result for AI law slop and it's not citing a hallucination:

https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/appeals-court-warns...

It's everywhere and not hard to find if you make even the most modest effort.

williamcotton 8 hours ago||
Ok, so, “gibberish” in this case?

Honestly, this word has lost all meaning, outside of perhaps “any use of AI”.

Well at least I know where team “lawslop” is coming from. Thanks, I guess?

samtp 8 hours ago||
Like I said before, you're being willfully dense in the context of this conversation.
john_strinlai 12 hours ago|||
i hope that someone can come up with something catchier than "thing-slop" or "slop-thing". the word has become basically meaningless from overuse.
epolanski 12 hours ago||
I love the slop word, to me it means effortless, average.

People confuse slop with "bad", but slop isn't bad per se, it only becomes bad when real effort was required.

samtp 9 hours ago|||
I mean the literal definition for slop as a noun does have a very negative connotation.

> broadly : a product of little or no value

> food waste (such as garbage) fed to animals

> excreted body waste

trollbridge 12 hours ago|||
Right. Pigs enjoy eating their slop. It’s not bad from their point of view.
samtp 9 hours ago||
Pig would much rather not eat slop. They are very intelligent animals.
epolanski 12 hours ago||
Slop?
aaimnr 12 hours ago||
So much for caring about the spirit of the law. Now we'll start an arms race for abusing every possible letter of the law.

It's analogous to crypto. Started from some noble anti-authoritarian ideas and morphed into machine that removes any friction for capital - whoever has the most money will keep gaining the most.

charcircuit 11 hours ago||
Why do you think LLM's language abilities are unable to understand the spirit of the law?
jatora 12 hours ago||
Do you really think the law isn't already horribly abused? Democratization of law has been needed for a thousand years.
aaimnr 12 hours ago|||
Now there will be even less friction to horribly abuse the law. To democratize the law we would need to move in the opposite direction - to always keep it simple and aligned with our intuitions. The more intricate and complex legal arguments become, the more abstracted they are from their original purpose and spirit.

Hence the crypto analogy - it was also supposed to "democratize", but the opposite happaned - it only further empowered the most powerful. Imagine legal case so purposefully complex that only those with access to best models have chances to participate and win the dispute.

xwkd 12 hours ago|||
Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but isn’t that what legislators do?
cmcclellan 13 hours ago||
I imagine the point here is to separate out the APIs by different professions and charge accordingly.
tesnorindian 5 hours ago||
Will the legal fees reduce after this? How about training AI models with laws of other countries especially the democratic ones? This is where sovereign AI models are required otherwise they will start hallucinating wrong laws of different countries.

I remember OpenAI was talking about sovereign AI models (OpenAI for Countries), it is time to train Astra India with Indian Constitution.

placebo 5 hours ago|
I guess the answer to the second question is "if there's a business case", and the answer to the first is the same, so probably no. Life has made me a tad cynical... :)
Ecstatify 13 hours ago||
Seems like another “product” that will be killed in 6 months, but is good for the IPO so they can say they solved law.
johnnyApplePRNG 10 hours ago||
what is going on here?

this vertigoruntime is brand new and his submissions absolutely dominate the front page recently https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=vertigoruntime

the about link https://vertigo.kuber.studio is obvious AI llm spam

ncr100 10 hours ago|
Email them...?
chr15m 7 hours ago||
An important take-away from this is the harness is really important. The graphs show that the same model with a better harness performs many percentage points better. OpenAI are getting into the "selling the harness" game in a big way. Why?

What's interesting about that is while not everybody can train or run a model, anybody can build a harness. You and I can build harnesses.

It seems strange that OpenAI would move into a field where any developer can compete with them. I think that tells us a lot about the economics of training and selling inference.

margalabargala 7 hours ago|
I don't think it says what you imply. I think they're just trying to vertically integrate.

Harnesses are going to be controlled at companies eventually, just like you might not have a choice of OS. They want to make sure they are the complete package.

chr15m 6 hours ago||
Yeah you're probably right, the purpose would be to lock in whole industry verticals.
jackb4040 11 hours ago||
"Rogue OpenAI agent swarm accidentally overturns the Civil Rights Act"

followed a month later by

"Anthropic's Claude inadvertently repeals the 19th amendment"

ayushiyerji 8 hours ago||
What we contributed to Reddit and Arxiv voluntarily before, what we contribute as traces right now are all being used to build business verticals by OpenAI and Anthropic. All these business verticals are being used for is more trace collection which would only strengthen these models and render most humans useless because the ceiling for 1000 swarms of Agents to learn is much higher than an average human. These companies clearly can identify the relevant traces for these business verticals which only strengthens the argument that NS was built on someone else's traces.
pletnes 13 hours ago|
Just like breaking crypto in the age of cloud is more about cost than time, this will lead to legal attacks based on the same principle. The biggest wallet wins.
xmprt 13 hours ago||
> The biggest wallet wins

This was already always the case. If anything, making this more accessible will reduce the barrier to entry for whether or not it's worth your time to take on a case. Instead of 50 lawyers spending 100s of hours on a case, you can have 1 or 2 lawyers + Astra working on it and if there's a case you can add more real lawyers.

3asgfq 13 hours ago||
There are other possibilities:

1) Lawyers are not as naive as software engineers and will fight being replaces by new laws.

2) If they are replaced, OpenAI will take a cut commensurate with the amount in dispute (OAI, please credit me for the idea in the IPO brochure).

xmprt 13 hours ago||
Many lawyers are owners/partners compared with software engineers who are more like cogs in the machine. They also bill hourly/contingency per case compared to engineers who are salaried. If a partner in a firm thinks they can take on more cases because of AI assistance then they will because that's just more money in their pockets.
mcmcmc 13 hours ago|||
That’s how the legal system in the US has always worked though
drakythe 13 hours ago|||
With regard to certain legal questions this has always been the case. AT&T Fought the US Government for 20 years and eventually won because the government gave up. Without some kind of national anti-SLAPP law we're all one irritated oligarch away from having our lives financially ruined.

I am curious what level of trust established law firms treat LLMs with.

umeshunni 13 hours ago||
That's already the case in law because you could just hire the best or most lawyers.
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