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Posted by JohnBerryman 3 hours ago

OpenAI is well positioned to fast-follow Jev(arcturus-labs.com)
125 points | 95 commentspage 2
tolugenius 2 hours ago|
I'm not exactly following through with the claim, can someone explain how the built-in classification would not necessitate more tokens used, or be much different from turning on reasoning? Not that I don't see the difference, I just doing see how OpenAI would do it well.
EagnaIonat 10 minutes ago||
Normal LLM will do the classification on the text that is generated. Jev just returns the classification and confidence.

It has the advantage of speed and the confidence not being hallucinated.

But LLMs start to generalise on the pattern, rather than the classification that you want the more examples you have to train on.

LLMs start to break down as well the more classifications you have. Laya (Open source paper Jev is based on) even mentions that over 20 classifications and it starts to fail rapidly.

20 is around the level of sentiment analysis or minor intent routing. There are cheaper, smaller and easier ML models for that level of classification.

mnicky 2 hours ago|||
AFAIK Jev is nothing special technically so it's easy to embed it as an another tool for the LLM? For many batch tasks it can still be quite a token saver I think.

Or they can even offer it as a standalone API if deemed worth it.

HarHarVeryFunny 2 hours ago||
Jev seems to have three benefits:

1) It's very cheap and fast - you provide one input and many potential classifications, and the compute to ingest the input is shared.

2) It generates structured output natively - guaranteed to be correct

3) It's output probabilities are calibrated to actually mean something

OpenAI, or anyone else, could certainly replicate it - there are already articles guessing how Jev achieves its "parallel" classifications, but it seems the AI companies need to decide are they in the business of providing intelligence/tokens, or are they in the application business trying to compete with all their customers (not that Jev uses OpenAI).

hbrn 2 hours ago|||
> It's output probabilities are calibrated to actually mean something

Don't fall for marketing BS so easily.

Jev can output drastically different probabilities if you simply reorder the list of choices. And Jev's "confidence" output is fake/redundant - it's just a formula applied to probabilities, it conveys no additional information.

I bet they will eventually "fix" (read hide under the rug) the ordering problem by ordering the list on the backend before feeding to the model.

HarHarVeryFunny 1 hour ago||
It seems that anyway most of the value is in the speed and cost.

If it really matters to you whether whether some business-specific classification confidence is above/below some specific threshold (vs just relative order), then you'd be better off training or fine tuning a custom model for that. Maybe that is something that TypeSafe are planning to also provide?

alex_sf 2 hours ago||||
Just to clarify:

> 2) It generates structured output natively - guaranteed to be correct

It's not guaranteed to be correct: it's guaranteed to be _formatted in a particular way_. You can get the same thing with grammars on any LLM.

Jev and Jev-like models have other advantages, but I feel like people forget grammars exist for LLMs.

time0ut 2 hours ago|||
Grammars do risk pushing models off distribution in a way that impacts their output quality in a way Jev allegedly does not suffer from. Additionally, Jev's ability to answer questions independently is also exciting. Using an LLM to answer multiple questions in one generation has the property of earlier answers influencing later ones. TBD how many of TypeSafe's claims stand up, but my testing so far is promising. I hope they author some papers on their methods as well, but that might destroy their moat.
LelouBil 2 hours ago|||
Not an expert at all here, but I saw a comment on the jev post saying that it you constrain an LLM suck that it outputs a valid structure, if the token with the highest probability is not the one that you expected because of the structure (and so you pick the valid lower one) this means the LLM was already confused and your answer is less likely to be correct anyways.

Is this actually true ?

verdverm 2 hours ago|||
(3) seems to be the hard one, you have to have training data with accurate probabilities, maybe, but perhaps not since people are primed to trust
danielmarkbruce 2 hours ago||
No, you don't. You do RLCR, similar to that proposed here:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2507.16806

verdverm 1 hour ago||
yes, and... pretty much everything in the Ai field comes back to "data makes more difference"
danielmarkbruce 1 hour ago||
Sure, and most days it doesn't rain.
verdverm 1 hour ago||
depends on where you live, an important feature for data points about weather pattern probabilities

the underlying data set needs to be representative

danielmarkbruce 49 minutes ago||
RLVR and RLCR really don't need a whole bunch of special data.
robertclaus 2 hours ago|||
I think the idea is that the latent thinking space in the LLM will be roughly the same for similar quality results - so the majority of executing well could be stripping back and fine tuning an existing LLM.
danielmarkbruce 2 hours ago||
The claim of how they are doing it is likely wrong.... if you had to bet, it's likely an encoder model of some sort.
drivebyhooting 52 minutes ago||
I’m shaking my head in disbelief.

Reading logits is the cornerstone of ML. It’s almost like many of the people reporting on and fawning over AI have no technical background and never knew about ML classifiers or calibration.

Kuyawa 1 hour ago||
Jev doesn't code. It can be used with LLMs to simplify coding and token consumption, but still and LLM is needed. Will they complement each other? How can Jev replace LLMs? Are they even competing?
transitorykris 1 hour ago|
You can easily use Jev without an LLM (consider Jev used to make truthy decision branches in a script). It's not meant to replace LLMs. The tech is not a competition. But OpenAI is certainly in competition with TypeSafe, they'll want to keep people in their own ecosystem!
LelouBil 2 hours ago||
Not directly related, but still jev related:

Would it be intesting/useful to use jev to generate a block of text like LLMs do ?

Like asking it to pick the n + 1 word given the starting text (using it's choice primitive), but also asking n + 2,n+3 and so on at the same time.

Would it give coherent or useful results ? Or does the fact that it computes it "all at once" means it cannot make one of it's answer influence the other ones ?

evrydayhustling 1 hour ago||
Even the article itself has the title as a question: "Will OpenAI eat Jev's lunch?". A more useful title would be "OpenAI is Positioned to Compete with Jev".
amelius 2 hours ago||
Can't they eat everybody's lunch simply by typing "Astra, please copy this product?"

They certainly have the token budget for it.

HarHarVeryFunny 2 hours ago|
Jack of all trades, master of none.
Havoc 1 hour ago||
Jev certainly feels vulnerable but whether it’s oai or someone else that goes after them seems unclear.

Wouldn’t be surprised if every single AI house spins up a copy

But like they usually also have an embeddings endpoint

willmadden 54 minutes ago||
That article is a bit myopic. People and companies don't want to feed all of their ideas, projects, and intellectual property to a morally unscrupulous oligopoly. We learned that lesson the hard way with the last batch of tech monopolies, and the shift towards majority open weight models proves the trend.

Open weight classifiers and open weight LLMs will be burned onto silicon cards in a few years after the models begin to stabilize. They'll be in PCs and laptops. That's going to capture a HUGE chunk of the market.

If you need more horsepower, you'll rent the same silicon safely from AI services cloud providers without handing your data over to Anthropic and OpenAI.

garff 2 hours ago||
I think the original idea originates from this author : https://laya.convaiinnovations.com/
JohnBerryman 1 hour ago||
Nope. Here's the closest I got https://arcturus-labs.com/blog/2025/03/31/supercharging-llm-... - 1.5 years ago! But I never really did anything with it. And I wasn't thinking about reinforcement learning anything.
linuxftw 2 hours ago|
I'm looking forward to next week when we never have to hear about Jev again.
superdisk 2 hours ago||
Why is everybody so obsessed with it? There are 2 Jev posts on the front page even now, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
epihelix 1 hour ago|||
Beats me also - this feels unreliable, extremely niche, and over-hyped. I don't trust LLMs even when they explain their reasoning; the idea of trusting a black-box classifier like this seems insane.
danielmarkbruce 2 hours ago|||
For certain tasks, it seems much, much more efficient. That's not nothing. People have been using LLMs for various classification tasks.
jackb4040 1 hour ago|||
In my company, and I think in most companies that are using AI at all, one of the first ways it got integrated is as a classifier, to tag orders based on feeding all their data into a prompt and asking for a structured output.

I think demand for tools that are more tailored for this type of integration is high. I don't really understand why Jev is supposed to get my company's decisions right more than an LLM, but regardless of the tech I think people are just excited about the possibility of iterating faster, more explainability, higher-level tools that are specifically created to help hone classifiers etc.

linuxftw 1 hour ago|||
Great, we don't need 15 thousands posts per hour across social media channels. We had classification NN before LLMs as well.
danielmarkbruce 1 hour ago||
Yeah but they weren't that great, you couldn't ask for arbitrary classifications after the model was trained. You are underestimating what they've done here, even if it does seem a little overhyped.
verdverm 2 hours ago||
this one feels closer to the claw cycle
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