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Posted by signa11 4 days ago

Grieving the loss of details(purplesyringa.moe)
289 points | 236 commentspage 2
faxmeyourcode 5 hours ago|
> I get almost physically ill when I work on a project with more source code files or at least general architecture than I can keep in my head, so I don’t get anything out of expanded scope

While I sympathize with your loss, this was always going to prevent you from holding down a job, even as a pre-LLM "coder." The majority of us have to work on systems, not just single files or cleanly isolated programs we can hold in our head.

purplesyringa 2 hours ago||
Perhaps I didn't formulate this too well. Say, rustc is a gigantic program, but the parser alone, or the borrow checker alone, or the LLVM backend alone are small enough to work on individually, and from the perspective of any such unit all the others can be treated as black boxes, deliberately designed to have as small of a public API surface as reasonable and to be as predictable as possible. That's just architecture 101. With LLM code, I notice, such abstractions fall apart, and the interconnectedness, duplicated code, and unclear expectations make it impossible to reason about the result except as a giant lump. Of course, tech debt is nothing new, but at least it used to be held back by the physical inability to make progress once things get dire; with LLMs, this misery gets prolonged.
xpct 3 hours ago||
I don't think this statement implies they meant 'single files'? They could be talking about complex systems that they could fit into their head, and now they can't do that with new workflows.
Earw0rm 5 hours ago||
This resonates with me. Hard.

I'm lucky though - as a hybrid engineer/manager, I've been able to lean away from the former and into the latter.

And I've come to notice that humans doing agentic work seem to need more emotional support per unit effort than those doing traditional engineering.

So there are opportunities there. I don't want to spend a second longer than I have to prompting machines - there is zero dopamine loop in that for me, I get more doing housework and at least that makes my wife happy - but I'm happy to support a few other humans engaged in that kind of work.

It's sad though. I used to love dreaming intricate machines into existence and then watching them come to "life", or at least actually start working. That dream seems dead for now, I hope it comes back but I won't hold my breath.

techgnosis 6 hours ago||
Yeah I feel this. My strongest passion in computing is simply learning how the machine and OS work. The code I would write would usually be experiments, not projects or tools.

I'm less pessimistic than the author though. There is always room for people who know what they are talking about. Take a deep breath.

atrettel 5 hours ago||
I wish that I could agree with you that "There is always room for people who know what they are talking about." I think that you are right in the long term. Eventually we will return to a world that values people who know what they are talking about.

In the short term, I have seen a lot of managers and other higher-ups talk about how we do not need to worry about low-level details anymore. In their minds, we are now all designers and architects, so we do not think about the small implementation details that ultimately do matter for performance and reliability.

People who know what they are talking about worry about all of the details from the big picture down to the small scales. We can still operate using abstractions like designers and architects, but we must know enough to choose the right abstractions that account for the concrete details properly. I've discussed this point earlier this year [1] using the tree swing diagram [2].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46422597

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_swing_cartoon

jaapz 5 hours ago|||
> I'm less pessimistic than the author though. There is always room for people who know what they are talking about. Take a deep breath.

But what will their day to day look like? Meetings?

Previously, I'd have to work days undisturbed to get important stuff out of the door. There was effort involved to reach an elegant solution that fit business need.

Now I'm a meat bag pressing enter on a "recommended" option Claude already figured out was the best approach.

bjornsing 5 hours ago|||
> Now I'm a meat bag pressing enter on a "recommended" option Claude already figured out was the best approach.

And how long can that last? We’re expensive meat bags…

techgnosis 5 hours ago||||
I couldn't possibly predict but I just doubt things will be as bad as everyone thinks, they never are.
frays 2 hours ago||
Denial Anger [Bargaining] Depression Acceptance
acedTrex 5 hours ago|||
> Now I'm a meat bag pressing enter on a "recommended" option Claude already figured out was the best approach.

If you are constantly thinking claudes approach is the best then perhaps you were not that good of an engineer to start with.

jaapz 4 hours ago||
lmao
kphorn 5 hours ago|||
One suggestion for the feeling that has been great for me. Finding a hobby where you can focus on sweating the details. Detach it from economic imperative (the core definition of a hobby, you dont make money from it). Ham radio, maker and micro electronics, woodworking, calligraphy, music. Of course there are more technically advanced solutions to the problem, that's not the point. The point is the effort and discovery.
plastic-enjoyer 5 hours ago|||
I was never the best programmer and never was to keen on building things or providing some value to users. I'm more interested in how systems work, especially computers and the OS, and so far, LLMs haven't taken that away from me. If programming and solving problems had been important to me, I'd probably have a problem right now. While I feel for OP, what interests him most—namely, understanding things and developing an intuition for them—is not a productive activity in the sense that it’s not about building or producing things. But the job of a software developer has always been exactly that and LLMs take an ongoing trend to the extreme. I think people like OP have no choice but to separate their personal interests from their job, as hard that may be.
xpct 3 hours ago||
Interesting. You don't feel like you were building an edge with your understanding of said systems or OS?

I'm very interested in systems as well, but being less sure about the future (on whether this is something I really need to think about, or whether I'll get opportunities to work much at this level), I started reading about such topics a fair bit less.

kypro 6 hours ago||
Room where? You're obviously not going to hire someone for their knowledge alone in late 2026... ChatGPT probably knows more than you know in every domain. What questions could I ask you that ChatGPT wouldn't be able to answer?
tomrod 5 hours ago|||
ChatGPT is a fantastic encyclopedia for knowledge retrieval and even is occasionally accurate!

It doesn't yet know when I brushed my teeth last, what specific foods in what quantities give me heartburn/indigestion, what that funky smell from my running shoes might be.

It can write pretty good code on a recursive loop when its provided a clear target. It can write better code when it has someone who understand architecture guiding it. It can review code reasonably well as well.

ChatGPT tied to robotics might even be able to do more interesting things!

It does pretty poor on highly specific knowledge where a RAG better supports -- something like Agent Search at GCP or AI Search at Cloudflare. But it can synthesize.

In effect, we've built an amazing library registry and need to up our librarian skills and the skills of people or systems that can use the information the librarian and their system can find.

fancyfredbot 5 hours ago||||
The point of the knowledge is that it helps you ask the right questions, not so much the ability to answer them.

Knowledge has been available just by asking Google for decades now. The LLM makes it easier but it's a difference of degree not of kind

Until the models are 100% reliable knowledge will be required in order to quickly spot issues and work efficiently with the model to address them.

Icathian 5 hours ago||||
The room comes from recognizing that, in many many domains, you don't even know the questions to ask.
Imustaskforhelp 4 hours ago||
Beautifully said.

I do wonder though about the optimizations within it, what could be the most optimal way to achieve such room (ie. knowing which questions to ask)

Yes, learning and tinkering is still really the greatest way to achieve that

but I think what I am talking about can be better simplified with the analogy of a gym: previously what used to be necessary (manual work/labour) but when most people got into information work, even then there was/is a need for it (physical work), then we saw the evolution of machines specifically designed to optimize for it and we got machines specifically designed for this training, which helped push people's body to their absolute limits.

I do wonder if an hyper-optimized environment of learning and for asking questions (or more so knowing the know how on which questions to ask), this whole process might be optimized for it and what that process might would look like is a source of curiosity to me.

A relevant video which talks about similar topics: Bodybuilding for the mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0DtxUJ6rAc

derektank 5 hours ago||||
You won’t hire someone to answer questions for you; you might hire someone to make decisions for you. And domain expertise is still very useful in both making good decisions and convincing other people to trust your decisions
sampullman 5 hours ago||||
Know what to ask is about as important as the answer. You can't do that very well without domain knowledge.

I'm not sure how it plays out in 5 or 10 years, but that's how it is now.

oxmo456 5 hours ago|||
Maybe people will be hired for the question they can actually ask and not for the raw knowledge they have
xyzsparetimexyz 1 hour ago||
No offense but this person seems either incredibly autistic or mentally ill.

> I don’t see myself as a programmer who is also an expert in a niche area; I see myself as exclusively a low-level coder,

> If anyone can point an LLM at slow code and it automatically finds a hot loop and uses a trick it found somewhere on the 'net to vectorize it, there is little point in hiring someone with a focus on that.

We're no longer in an age where this kind of aggressive specialization makes a lot of sense. And, honestly, that's a good thing. The best thing is to have T-shaped knowledge. Go deep in a few areas, shallow in many.

> A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein

crnkofe 1 hour ago||
Having been working on a lot of low complexity code over the last few years I don't really sympathize with the author. I mainly use LLMs for the chores. And there are many many chores in software development. CRUD APIs, validation, yet another DB service, yet another script, minor version upgrades etc. Chores are also very straightforward to review. I do reserve the time to do normal engineering especially for the rare interesting algo and don't get this obsession with how everything must be agentic at all costs. Honestly seems like crypto propaganda all over again. If productivity "really" has gotten 10x doing some tasks without LLMs won't even put a dent in your average dev. output. What I do grieve is a lack of non-AI news. Might just stop following HN for a year or two and wait for the LLM spam to die off.
ajrouvoet 5 hours ago||
“I almost get physically ill when there is more code than I can keep in my head” resonates with me, but it is the exact reason that I enjoy working on better abstractions. Not in the “Javaesque” sense, as you call it, but in the mathematical sense.

I’m working intensively with LLMs to find out what they can and cannot do and for all the capabilities in there they remain terrible at compressing functionality into few concepts and as a result they produce incoherent (read Fred Brooks on coherent design!), failure-prone products. In other words: I expect that there will be good demand for people who refuse to let code grow beyond something they can keep in their head, even though the means by which one accomplishes this might be different than what you do now.

Hope that there is some solace in this.

jaapz 5 hours ago|
That's the state now. Look at the leaps that were made just in the last few months.
ajrouvoet 4 hours ago||
For my work in innovation/R&D the leaps are relevant but more or less orthogonal to what I’m talking about above. I think there is a limit to the consistency and quality that one can expect of software whose surface area scales linearly with the feature set, if that makes sense.

It is tempting to extrapolate the fast progress and conclude that everything will be automated soon, but it still appears to me that LLMs have a “spikey profile”: while very good in some areas, they fail completely in many others, with no evidence that this is only a matter of time.

dofm 3 hours ago||
"...are being infested by LLM fans that seek recognition rather than the experience, which sucks the fun out"

Part of the all-encompassing thief-of-joy grey goo is definitely the oafish, tactless footsoldiers.

pwdisswordfishq 5 hours ago||
> I first became familiar with computing when I saw the history scene in Tron: Legacy

Thanks for making me feel old

ok123456 17 minutes ago|
Screenshot of Solaris x86 too.
isityettime 5 hours ago||
This reminds me a lot (mostly for worse) of the industrial revolution. The industrialization of textiles didn't help weavers weave better clothes. It displaced smaller, higher quality output with dramatically less varied, lower quality output in much greater quantities, more cheaply. It also dramatically undermined the relative autonomy of weavers and the control they exerted over the structure and details of their own workdays.

What I think we're likely to witness here, or at least what AI investors ultimately are hoping to see happen, is the displacement of code as we know it (often already sorely lacking in quality and craft) not by more of the same varieties of code, but a massive profusion of shittier, more homogenous code. It won't have to win by being better; it'll be able to do that by being cheaper alone. And we're frankly kidding ourselves if we think that doesn't mean a profound deskilling and potentially deprofessionalization across the whole class.

Kon5ole 4 hours ago||
>It won't have to win by being better

I agree but it's also better. On average for most programming tasks I think humans are as "defeated" as coders as we are as chess players.

The machines will not only be as good or better than you at the DB design, the business logic, the performance critical algorithms, the UX, the performance tweaks, the accessibility standards, security holes, browser compatibilities, laws and regulations and whatever else you need to make the whole solution.

It will also write user manuals in any language, and rewrite them when needed even on a friday evening. It absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are DE...wait, I mean DONE!

So the situation for coders is even worse than it was for the weavers. The machine delivers not only cheaper and faster, but also better. :-/

rwyinuse 4 hours ago||
I think nearly all white collar office workers will be replaced eventually. For lots of jobs, the limitation is not the ability of current models, but lack of integration to existing systems. This will change quickly, as writing new systems and integrations is cheaper than ever, thanks to agentic programming.

If the job involves mostly working on a computer, it will be probably gone in 10-20 years.

Kon5ole 2 hours ago||
You may be right that white collar work can be replaced but I don't think it will be. Current society can't function with a majority of the population unemployed.

It's a catch-22 for the companies as well, since white collar work is presumably done because a company has customers, and most of their customers are white collar workers. At least in the US and Europe.

plastic-enjoyer 5 hours ago||
> This reminds me a lot (mostly for worse) of the industrial revolution. The industrialization of textiles didn't help weavers weave better clothes.

I don't think comparing it to the industrial revolution is appropriate, as the political and social conditions were completely different. I think you can compare the disruption that is introduced by artificial intelligence more with the deindustrialization of regions such as the Ruhrgebiet in Germany.

franciscop 5 hours ago|
I've been very lucky that I love both sides, both the "programming" part and the "making things" part. Even then, it's been quite brutal coming to terms that the programming side of things is a chapter of my life that is basically over, at least professionally.

I'm trying to reinvent myself now and learn the other sides of the projects; how to monetize, how to promote my projects, how to "finish them", etc. I understand that's also changing radically since many people are trying the same thing, and with LLMs the market is changing in unpredictable ways, but that's also exciting! I can get so many more things done now that before I just didn't have the time or focus to finish.

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