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Posted by Anon84 8 hours ago

Terence Tao: Math 2.0 [pdf](teorth.github.io)
273 points | 326 comments
dekhn 7 hours ago|
I work in drug discovery and AI and his slide about cancer medicine isn't very well informed. We have models and narratives about how drugs work, but they are woefully incomplete.

I ask nearly every doctor/researched in the medical field: if you had a AI-created drug that tremendously improved cancer treatment outcomes for your patient, would you hesitate to prescribe it because nobody understood how it worked? I have yet to hear "yes, I would hesitate", most people say "it would be cruel to deny a person a treatment that worked".

I think Tao is focusing too much on second order effects of AI on math and other fields; humans are terrible at reasoning about second order effects, especially ones that are happening dynamically, in real time, using the most advanced mathematical models the world has yet created.

captainclam 2 hours ago||
I also work in drug discovery, and I completely agree; the extent to which the actual causal mechanisms of the efficacy of many drugs is woefully short of some human-appreciable first-principles based explanation. The point is especially undercut by hypothetically suggesting that this drug /does/ in fact pass stage 3 trials, at which point I can't fathom anyone would have a problem advancing it.

Really wish he had chosen a different example; this particular bullet point has been making the rounds on X/twitter to paint Tao as an example of some sort of gatekeeping luddite who would deny the world a post-abundance future in order to maintain the prestige of his particular career path...which is tough because I cannot think of a more responsible steward of our inevitable AI future than Tao at the moment.

curt15 40 minutes ago|||
The accounts spreading that narrative on X no doubt have their own agenda. Before people start hyperventilating about "AI" conquering human endeavors, remember that the cash-strapped frontier labs are themselves still hiring human "Account Associates" and "Android Engineers" instead of saving those salaries using their own AI capabilities.

https://openai.com/careers/search/

EA-3167 20 minutes ago||||
Instead of bemoaning his specific and clumsy example, take the gift of this moment and don’t forget that he’s smart, confident, and usually wrong or completely ignorant outside of his own narrow field.

Don’t let the Gell-Mann Amnesia take you.

calf 2 hours ago|||
The conflations about his example ("thought experiment") is twofold, the AI itself confounds the ethical intuition so it is wrong directly compare against what real medicine today does; furthermore, the very admission that real medicine in fact operates through unknown risks (e.g. Jannsen vaccine recall) is different than having a scientific standard that it should not have to be that way at least as minimally as possible.
jsenn 6 hours ago|||
You are picking on 1 bullet point out of 7. I think the following bullet point is the crux of his argument:

> Could the AI solution be somehow misaligned by exploiting a weakness in the trial process or its math models?

Many of our institutions and cultural practices have evolved around human beings, not ruthless paperclip maximizers. Do you think the current drug approval process is bullet proof enough that a completely novel AI-generated drug candidate with zero prior research literature can be considered safe if it makes it through the process?

Tao is a mathematician. He thinks that the institutions and cultural practices in math are not up to the task of dealing with AI-generated mathematics. In software, we are finding that programming interviews, code review, testing, and many other practices are too easy to exploit by AIs, or humans augmented with AIs, and we will have to adapt too. I think it is plausible that other institutions in society will have to change for similar reasons.

tomp 3 hours ago|||
> Many of our institutions and cultural practices have evolved around human beings, not ruthless paperclip maximizers.

You just think that because you don’t know how the drug discovery process works.

There’s a step called “lead optimization” where human chemists literally add atoms to drug-like molecules (“lead”) and tests its various properties (toxicity, potency, permeability, …) and iterate until they find a molecule with desired properties (literally “hill-climbing”).

The whole idea of drug trials is to validate those properties in actual humans, in a way that makes it very hard for pharma companies to game the process.

dekhn 5 hours ago||||
"""Do you think the current drug approval process is bullet proof enough that a completely novel AI-generated drug candidate with zero prior research literature can be considered safe if it makes it through the process?"""

No but we also don't expect that to happen with drugs today. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rofecoxib as an example; of course, even after it was withdrawn, it's now being evaluated for other purposes in more carefully controlled conditions.

tough 3 hours ago||||
There are probably more mis-aligned humans than mis-algined AI's today.
calf 2 hours ago||||
I saw the slide and it's confusing to me, I could argue that it actually shows that current human-style medicine also fails his standard, or I could argue that status quo is kind of ethically okay but that AI is not comparable so demands a non intuitive ethical standard. Not obvious which based on one slide, but also not the "Tao is not a doctor!" criticism we are seeing.
rdedev 6 hours ago|||
> Do you think the current drug approval process is bullet proof enough that a completely novel AI-generated drug candidate with zero prior research literature can be considered safe if it makes it through the process?

I mean no? Even now we look at long term observational studies to see the effects of drugs. Any misalignment ai drug is just a side effect right?

robswc 6 hours ago|||
I think everyone agrees that it's totally fine if a drug came about due to AI.

I know nothing about medicine research but I understand his point. I work with models all the time and have run into instances where models appear to work better than they actually do because there was a bug somewhere or someone over looked something. I could see how an AI could easily find those exploits and spit out something that looks perfect in testing but fails in the real world. I would say model validation is one of the hardest things to do. I guess that can get deep into "we need better tests" but it also touches on his point. I never intentionally use exploits just to pass a test, it's an accident. An AI with a goal of "maximize this result" may or may not intentionally use the exploits.

To be sure though, I think when it's literally life or death, it's going to be all about trade offs. I think most people would want to try to drug even with the stipulation that "maybe its good results were gamed."

* note: lot of 'intent' throw around in my comment but we/I have to keep in mind there is no "intent" with an LLM :)

dekhn 6 hours ago||
> I would say model validation is one of the hardest things to do

This is one of the truest statements about the current AI era that can be made (in fact, I suspect model validation and building the next generation of AI hardware are the jobs least likely to be disrupted in the next 3 years).

If we saw AIs reward-hacking clinical trials to get drugs passed, that would be an extraordinary outcome for many reasons. Hopefully that would get caught(!)

coef2 2 hours ago|||
It's ironic that ML researchers don't fully understand why their models behave the way they do, yet continue to make progress using benchmarks to guide the efforts. Human understanding is important but whether and to what extent it's necessary seems to be a separate question, and the answer may depend on the nature of the field.
caaqil 1 hour ago||
> Human understanding is important but whether and to what extent it's necessary seems to be a separate question

We are about to find out the answer soon enough, probably from the in vitro results of the mathematicians currently on the chopping block.

I submit that human understanding is overrated, and many attempts to elevate it in the wake of AI is mediated by protectionism masquerading as virtue and "deep".

esalman 1 hour ago||
What matters more is that what will happen to us when we find the answer. That's what Tao et al. are more worried about.

Traditional way of doing science means we (governments, NIH, NSF, and even private corporations) fund activities like asking seemingly unimportant questions, spending years running experiments on such hypothesis, publishing, reviewing, talking about results, reproducing results and such. We all agree that these are beneficial to us as a whole (Hacker news crowd might disagree). When we understand a process, we can apply it to a different problem and produce something useful. Euler developed a process to answer a whimsical question about walking in a town crossing 7 bridges only once. Now graph theory is applied everywhere.

We obviously have failed to stop OpenAI from dumping "solutions" to hundreds of problems. So going forward, instead of testing hypothesis and talking about results, mathematicians will be forced to read through AI slop and detect what's useful and what's wrong. Maybe it will improve our understanding, but someone has to fund that activity. Will NSF, NIH, or OpenAI for that matter, do that?

djierardi 6 hours ago|||
In medicine, or drug discovery more generally, there's FAR too little empirical data for training of ML generally. See OpenAdmet. The kickback to "oh but yeah cancer" is currently just hype. DeepMind has pivoted to this realm but has no demonstrable improvements. For the typical phase 1-2-3 pipeline of drugs, stretching many years, there's not yet any demonstrable improvements.
dekhn 6 hours ago||
I think your perspective is limited- in cancer, we have copious genomic information that informs treatment (including clinical trials where treatment is determined by AI).
gste 6 hours ago|||
The effect of the AI-created drug is saving someone's life.

The effect of the AI-created proof is a mathematician abandoning years of research, losing grants, awards, ruining their career, etc.

The only difference here is our emotional reaction!

esalman 1 hour ago||
Do you mean to claim that the years of research mathematicians, or scientists in any other fields, don't lead to saving lives?
throwaway18bva 3 hours ago|||
Serious question asking for a serious answer: would you say any of this so confidently if “drug discovery” is the next “mathematics”?
paulpauper 2 hours ago|||
It's more nuanced than that: Tao is not saying people should be denied drugs, but ideally, the mechanisms of why they work would also be understood.
jacquesm 1 hour ago||
We don't really have that for many present day medicines. We know they work, statistically speaking. But we don't know for all of them how they work, what the mechanism is. For some drugs this lags the discovery of the drug itself (historically: all drugs, but in the last 100 years fewer of them). For some drugs it simply hasn't happened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Drugs_with_unknown_me...

And for some it may never happen...

Madmallard 3 hours ago||
As usual people that are smart think they can be masters of other fields for which they know nothing.
esalman 1 hour ago|||
Claiming that a field medalist mathematician is too smart is peak hacker news.
cwillu 3 hours ago|||
Who's claiming to be a master of another field?
squidmaster 7 hours ago||
> Before injecting this cocktail into your bloodstream, would you want to know that there is at least one human cancer researcher who understands the mechanism behind this cure.

Tao is out of his lane; lots of medicines don't have understood mechanisms. We don't even have the mechanisms behind general anesthesia nailed down; do you want to forgo it when the docs cut you open to remove your tumors?

ijk 7 hours ago||
AI has been turning computer science into biology for the past decade or so. By which I mean that things like neural networks need to be investigated empirically, constructing methodologies and instruments that more closely resemble how fields like biology and medicine have to probe the very complex and messy reality that is beyond our current capacity to fully express in symbolic precision.

Now math gets to deal with that same reckoning. They were already well on their way there with previous Lean proofs, but this has pushed things beyond that horizon and I'm not sure some of the mathematicians are ready for it.

Karrot_Kream 1 minute ago|||
Science has always had an empirical component separate from its theoretical one. For a long time in human history, science was mostly empirical. The periodic table is a great example of mostly empirical observation organized into a pattern. I think the science of the 20th century was the "triumph of theory" so many of us have forgotten what a more empirically driven STEM world is like.
curt15 46 minutes ago||||
While studying neural networks empirically like biology is one possible approach, there's no reason for that to be the blessed approach other than a combination of inertia and current lack of understanding. It's been only 15 years since AlexNet. Scientists struggled for centuries to model atoms before developing quantum mechanics and later QFT as an accurate quantitative framework.

Also, while biological systems simply exist in nature, artificial neural networks are ultimately mathematical objects with various properties that have yet to be uncovered.

ip26 1 hour ago||||
Agreed, I keep thinking to myself that there's a huge mathematical question right in front of us today that is in exactly this vein - all the various nuances of why LLM's work so well is a mathematical question. As far as I know, it's not really understood beyond "we do this basic thing (that makes sense) to predict that a noun is followed by a verb, and then we scale it up a bazillion fold and it can contribute to mathematics research".

As a comparison, classical computing has been scaled up a bazillion fold too, and can do things which are absolutely miraculous, but every layer of abstraction is discretely understandable.

LelouBil 2 hours ago|||
I really like this way of putting it
dataviz1000 3 hours ago|||
On the other side, I’ve never gone to college, yet I was able to take an extremely important and complicated equation and decompose it into its constituent parts, animating each with data visualizations and animated tables of values. [0] This was several frontier model iterations ago.

The LLM model was able to break down and express math in such a simple way that I could understand and follow the training of the LLM model itself!

Are the math and computation accurate? I don’t know, and likely there are significant errors. Nonetheless, if I had a little more time -- not infinite time -- I would be able to prove whether they are or not.

Likely this is the path forward for understanding the mechanisms of medicine, and since most humans learn by doing and interacting with an environment, interacting like this will become how we use AI for learning in the near future.

[0] https://adamsohn.com/grpo/

esalman 1 hour ago||
I mean no disrespect, but it's a basic minimization problem with regularization. Most engineering students will learn this in first year of Masters, if not in Bachelor level. To you it might seem important and complicated, but to me, one look at the objective function was enough. That's what happens when you truly "understand" something.
gste 7 hours ago|||
Indeed, aren't medical trials based on its effects, rather than how it works?

Would you prefer to take the medicine that is proven to work or the one that is quite interesting for academic reasons behind its understood mechanisms but doesn't actually work?

ehsankia 3 hours ago||
Right, the better argument would've been to say that we should wait until the drug undergoes some early trials, rather than just "some expert looking at it".
throwaway18bva 3 hours ago|||
Lots of problems in mathematics didn’t have solutions just a month ago.
Tanjreeve 7 hours ago|||
Some mechanism of particular substrates being effective on a condition (commonly when a medicine is repurposed) not being fully understood is not the same as just guessing with a medical compound. AI boosters keep coming out with this line but it's basically wordplay to conflate the clinical/biomedical version of "not fully understood" with the LLM industry version of "not fully understood"
NewsaHackO 2 hours ago||
I feel as though Tao is getting alot of public attention that he hasnt had since his childhood, which is why he is releasing all of these blog posts
derac 1 hour ago|||
I feel like a lot of this stuff is rationalizing emotions and self-interest, but that's very unnecessarily rude.
azan_ 1 hour ago||||
This has to be some kind of projection, right? Tao was getting LOTS of attention before the AI saga.
throwaway179na3 2 hours ago|||
That sounds like something someone never got the attention they wanted would say.
thomasahle 57 minutes ago||
Explaining Tao's point in software terms: the point of pure mathematics is to build and maintain a high quality "codebase" of theory, definitions and proofs.

"Open problems are lighthouses not destinations" mean that these are currently not well explained by the theories and people should look into extending the codebase on that direction.

The current generation of math AI is not a "good citizen" in that it doesn't try to make the most elegant additions to the shared framework, but will often just rebuild everything from scratch til get to some endpoint.

Sure, we learned if the statement is true or false; but the proof can't be merged into the pure math codebase unless it's completely rebuilt. This is thankless work that humans are unlikely to want to do, and so the "solution" instead risks leaving a desolate patch of land, where existing efforts in extending the codebase lost their motivation.

As with all things AI we can't take more than a 1-3 year horizon, if even that much. Probably AI will become better at respecting and working within the existing theories as it has with large software codebases.

samuelknight 7 hours ago||
Slide 12 and 13 sum up my conclusions from the Oct 8 100+ reactions to 100+ solutions. Several reported OpenAI drop included answers put a wrap on problems they had been working for years. Several said that they have to completely rewrite grant requests that they had just submitted. Others described learning of the solutions problems they had been working on like losing an old friend or a lover. The general sentiment was to bemoan the loss of a field, as if it would have been better be born in the early 20th century and conclude their career arc before reaching this point. My take away is that the field needs to get it through their heads that their old problems are no longer ambitious, and that their job in the short term is to find the new frontier.

One idea Terrance Tao conjectures, which is highly doubtful, is that spamming the AI button will solve open problems without producing insightful new methods. But the OpenAI drop would seem to disprove this. The sub O(nlogn) proof for DFT for example violated very old human assumptions. Decades of work in the field was incremental progress on sub optimal method that nobody questioned hard enough. More generally, we should always be able to go back to a super-human AI and say, "Attack this problem, but don't use a method tried before."

jebarker 6 hours ago||
I don’t think your second paragraph is a fair representation of what Tao is saying or contradicts his argument. He is arguing that AI can be useful in the service of human understanding in math and the examples you gave are exactly that. Whilst OpenAI just spammed the AI button the mathematicians that engaged with the output were able to progress their understanding about the problems in some ways (some of which they don’t really like). You need both parts for this to be useful to the field. What’s not clear is whether the juice is worth the squeeze: will all the money spent on spamming the AI and human mathematician time spent studying the outputs progress the field “better” than without the AI?
zozbot234 5 hours ago||
> What’s not clear is whether the juice is worth the squeeze: will all the money spent on spamming the AI and human mathematician time spent studying the outputs progress the field “better” than without the AI?

The AI proofs are a side-product of benchmarking current and in-development models on especially hard problems. They're clearly cost effective for frontier AI firms, and free for the taking as far as human mathematicians are concerned. The real issue with them is that they look like bizarre nonsense as written, so they need mathematicians familiar with those specific areas of math to "decode" and digest them.

curt15 30 minutes ago|||
> They're clearly cost effective for frontier AI firms

It's not obvious that this is a given. "Cost-effective" implies a comparison between cost and output. OAI spent millions to race human researchers on Navier Stokes, and that doesn't even account for the training cost. And how does one value the output? OAI is for some reason still hiring armies of humans instead of automating roles like "AI support engineer" or "Product Designer" (https://openai.com/careers/search/).

Calling the proofs a "side-product" is also rather dubious when OAI employs a team of mathematicians specifically to train its theorem proving capabilities.

jebarker 5 hours ago|||
Yeah, right now the juice isn’t only about the progress of math - it’s also the advancement of the LLM tech and the marketing benefit to the AI companies which feeds back into developing the tech. Those each have a different juice to squeeze ROI.
gpt5 7 hours ago|||
Software engineers are primarily outcome-oriented.

Mathematicians are primarily understanding-oriented.

Leveraging AI to tackle new frontiers without true understanding converts mathematicians to engineers.

moffkalast 1 hour ago|||
Well at the end of the day, the point of trying to understand the universe is to achieve specific goals leveraging that understanding.

It seems to me that all of these hundreds of proofs we've seen recently are glorified academic exercises, whose purpose is curiosity for its own sake without any practical application, or we'd already hear about at least one of them being implemented to some gain somewhere. It's all woefully unimpressive. It's not like anything stops mathematicians from trying to find more elegant solutions to their machine solved pet problems, since that's what they were going to try and do anyway despite it being completely pointless in practice.

simianwords 6 hours ago|||
Actually both are outcome oriented and both can use AI to compress decades of progress. One camp accepts this naturally. Other camp is making their profession to be mysterious and spiritual to run away from the implications of AI
aquariusDue 50 minutes ago||
Since when are code poets no longer a thing? /s
nialv7 6 hours ago|||
> The sub O(nlogn) proof for DFT for example violated very old human assumptions.

btw people has massively improved the lower bound (from 1-2^-182 to about 1-2^-10) in the past couple of days: https://github.com/CrocSwap/integer-mult-bounds

stabbles 2 hours ago||
Looking at this I'm reminded of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymath_Project, in particular "Yitang Zhang's 2013 breakthrough on bounded prime gaps, eventually lowering the upper bound on the gap between consecutive primes from 70,000,000 down to 246".
godwinson__4-8 3 hours ago|||
I don't think we should be using the term "spam the AI button".

We should name the explicit mechanism that was employed - telling the model to "believe in yourself".

There is something quite humorous but also poetic about how the manipulation of this term worked. Doubtless in the model's weights lies the echoes of generations upon generations of humans telling each other to believe in themselves.

In pursuing the "new frontier" as you rightly put it, mathematicians would do well to remember the same. It's ok, don't be afraid of the future. Believe in yourself.

zeven7 2 hours ago||
Was that phrase specifically used in the prompt?
godwinson__4-8 55 minutes ago||
Yes
hansvm 6 hours ago|||
> solve open problems without producing insightful new methods

> sub-O(nlogn) proof disproves that

How? Re-iterating, creating and understanding new proof techniques is the point of most of modern mathematics. Your statement is that proving a particular result is evidence of AI creating and understanding new proof techniques. I don't see how that follows, and I'm inclined to believe Tao is right for now.

And yes, results matter too, but if we stop at our current body of techniques and strip-mine results then we'll kneecap our future selves.

samuelknight 6 hours ago||
The DFT paper is an example against AI 'strip-mining'. The paper introduces a new method, and researchers are already trying to improve on it. If anything, the OpenAI dump re-vitalized that branch of study.
zozbot234 5 hours ago||
Agreed. Basically, if you don't make any effort to understand the proofs and you just look at the final answer, it will look like this proof dump is "strip mining" entire branches of math. But this is a pretty short-sighted way of looking at the issue: there will be plenty of novel approaches to be uncovered here.
lubujackson 2 hours ago|||
I am a bit disappointed in this Math 2.0 concept. It is poorly proposed and weakly argued. Although I agree with his main point that AI should focus on helping human understanding, that doesn't preclude AI from finding answers first then figuring out how to explain it afterwards.

This is exactly what happened with that counterproof chat he posted a month or so ago - AI gave us an answer, he used AI to back into insights about the answer.

You don't address seismic shifts with a sweeping new approach, they are too multifaceted and present complexities and conflicts. He can say AI should help human understanding, which is a good end goal, but that doesn't mean AI dumping solutions isn't progress. That doesn't mean if AI builds 5,000 proofs in Lean and no human ever looks at them that they aren't useful, especially if other LLMs can access and build on those results.

This is exactly, exactly the same as when computers took over. "Oh, we don't need accountants any more" - not true, we just need acountants to deal more with human concerns than adding columns of numbers. That is called human progress, not a threat to humanity.

dekhn 6 hours ago|||
Should we feel sorry that a mathematician had to write a grant request they submitted because an automated tool did what they wanted to do?

I don't really know the answer to that. I am happy when my own work is replaced by automated tools ("script yourself out of a job every six months!").

lg5689 3 hours ago||
I think it makes sense to feel sympthy towards people facing disruption in their plans, even if you believe society is better off overall.

It's like getting scooped. If you just founded a startup based on tech XYZ, should you be happy when someone releases an open source XYZ? Should a news reporter be happy when another network breaks the story they were working on? On the one hand, society got the value of the thing you wanted to do. On the other hand, now you need to find something else to do, which might be really annoying.

9721IsTheNumber 7 hours ago||
The sub O(n log n) significance is not in its practical "optimality". But rather that the previous lower bound was assumed to be true "by symmetry" and that result challenges some of our strongest intuitions and expectations about mathematical results. I still find this result very unsettling and a part of me remotely expects/wishes that there is some mistake somewhere.
pietroppeter 1 hour ago||
If you have not been following and focus on the cancer slide as an anti AI take, Tao has been involved and has a positive attitude towards AI for a while, he is just thinking a bit ahead on how the work of humans might change. https://teorth.github.io/tao-web/ai-views.html
fnordpiglet 6 hours ago||
Some of this feels like at times a public frenetic grieving process. Some of the rationalizations are fairly tortured, the seeking to place the world in some definite order is bordering on obsessive.

We don’t know where this technology advance will lead or settle, so it’s absurd to try to establish a working paradigm at this point. It’s like any system, the initial conditions can be extremely chaotic and impossible to model, but with time often a stable state emerges. But the stable state is impossible to identify from early initial states.

I know a lot of folks feel this, to torture other physics metaphors, sensation of jerk - acceleration of acceleration. It’s an unpleasant and dislocating sensation. A world that felt safe and stable suddenly isn’t, and not in a micro tragedy sense but in a global realignment sense. This happened to factory workers who had enjoyed generations of stable work, farmers more slowly and just as surely.

This is what the late stages of scarcity feels like. Labor of various types devalues rapidly. Our exchange of meal and health coupons for toil cracks, and people realize their labor wasn’t godly as great books told us, but simply needed for want of an alternative. The realization that our labors might not be valued any more, and that our sense of purpose is shaken, coupled with the fact we’ve tied bare survival to our toil in our labor, is mortally tightening. No wonder people are grieving publicly.

But maybe our purpose isn’t to toil? Maybe we’ve passed peak population, and as toil is less valuable, we need less people and that’s why population is declining. Maybe we don’t need to exchange food and health coupons for toil, maybe mathematicians don’t need to rationalize their value to pursue mathematics. Maybe they can pursue it because they can’t help but pursue it, and our ever improving automations can produce their meal and health coupons?

But it might require Dr Tao to take an AI generated cancer medicine some day.

lubujackson 2 hours ago||
Are we reading the same post

Bottom line, Tao is pushing for human understanding as the primary goal, with AI helping on all fronts. You are welcome to let Jesus take the wheel, but math is the most pure expression of human understanding. His point is that getting specific answers is rarely the goal, or certainly not the entirety of the goal.

Simply put, if we don't understand the answers we won't know what the next question should be.

mrlongroots 1 hour ago|||
Having not yet read the post,

> Bottom line, Tao is pushing for human understanding as the primary goal

100%. This applies to SWEs/math folks/etc. I do infra and I see many SWEs take their hands off the wheel. When they encounter perf issues they ask their agent and agent says GC and they say GC. It's rarely GC.

Now we might be well past the point where we need to remember the kubectl flags for rollouts etc. But basic human understanding of what their bots are doing as a goal has never changed. Humans are still liable for when bad things happen, and that hasn't changed over the roller coaster the last 5-odd years have been. LLMs, as astonishing they are at Navier Stokes, are still eminently capable of nuking your filesystem and saying "I can now see that that was wrong" with zero regrets. If you can't understand you can't sign off.

> math is the most pure expression of human understanding

This I don't know about. I think math acquires meaning when it contacts reality: like an iota is pointless until there's some circuit that it explains. Abstract math can diverge from that and can become an exercise in playing with symbols for their own sake.

bluepoint 11 minutes ago|||
> This I don't know about. I think math acquires meaning when it contacts reality: like an iota is pointless until there's some circuit that it explains. Abstract math can diverge from that and can become an exercise in playing with symbols for their own sake.

After talking to a mathematician friend I can assure you that contact with reality is not the main goal of abstract math. It is mental constructions that have logical consistency and probably this is not the perfect definition either. It is somewhat of an art which is rendered in the logical mind. However physicists (me) and engineers will align with you.

Loquebantur 49 minutes ago||||
You touch on a very central point there: meaning is what humans make of it.

Explaining nature causally using mathematical models isn't "the primary goal" of humanity. STEM people tend to have a weird misconception there, probably stemming from their misconceptualization of the humanities.

This in turns leads to this odd idea of "AI will think for us". That's pure (and pretty obvious) insanity. Logically minded people encountering it should ask, where the error in their reasoning is.

catlifeonmars 50 minutes ago|||
> Abstract math can diverge from that and can become an exercise in playing with symbols for their own sake.

I have two issues with the implication of this statement:

1. Meaning is inherently subjective. Reality is just a canvas on which sentient beings create their own meaning.

2. There are many, many examples of where “playing with symbols for their own sake” have yielded deep insights. There’s actually some implicit structure (eg the structure of logic) that is intrinsic to the universe we live in.

jstummbillig 1 hour ago||||
We struggle, and will for some time, to understand how transformed our lives will be.

The questions we asked were originally not about math. They were about a thing that we invented maths for to do or explain, a question that existed, because it touched us in some way that was already real to us. There is nothing that would not allow this to happen in the future. All this requires is attention and connection to the world around us. The maths required to answer our questions can be done and developed by something else.

To me, all you need to believe for this to be true is to agree that understanding maths is also not a stated requirement of reality to get a thing, if something else understands the maths (or something that does the same job). This is demonstrated by billions of people who do not understand maths and get things that, currently, require other people to understand the maths.

But the last part is entirely optional as it pertains to reality. That's just the best we can currently do (and in some important sense it is holding us back as a species, and in some other sense doing the opposite).

If that goal is understanding math, you certainly will be able to understand maths, more than ever before.

If that goal is something that required you to understand maths first in the past, you won't have to do that anymore.

jacquesm 1 hour ago||||
A whole book was written about this and very, very few people got the point it was making.
LumJerliu 57 minutes ago|||
Which book are you referring?
Luc 52 minutes ago|||
Maybe because it was just a joke?
brap 27 minutes ago||||
>we won't know what the next question should be

What if AI knows better than us?

fasterik 1 hour ago||||
This is an empirical question, right? We could have three teams of researchers, team A focusing purely on understanding, team B focusing purely on solving problems, and team C focusing on a combination of the two. See which one makes the most breakthroughs on problems we actually care about.

I respect Tao and I believe he's trying to think deeply about the issues, but a lot of his thinking seems to revolve around preserving the current roles and prestige of mathematicians, and also makes a lot of assumptions about the capabilities of AI years or decades into the future.

mrlongroots 1 hour ago||
> This is an empirical question, right? We could have three teams of researchers, team A focusing purely on understanding, team B focusing purely on solving problems, and team C focusing on a combination of understanding and solving problems. See which one makes the most progress.

This is not me being snarky, but all meaningful questions can be settled empirically---e.g., "what happens to my body if I jump off the cliff". But empirical trials have a cost (time, money, irreversibility etc.) and we model and predict because it's cheaper than the trial.

fasterik 1 hour ago|||
My point is that pushing for human understanding as the primary goal assumes an answer to an empirical question that we don't yet have evidence for. How do we know that human understanding is the right instrumental goal, as opposed to solving open problems as fast as possible? Even if we think human understanding has intrinsic value, how do we know which approach will maximize human understanding in the long run?

The idea that all meaningful questions can be answered empirically is known as "verificationism" and is philosophically quite dubious.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verificationism

pmoriarty 1 hour ago|||
> all meaningful questions can be settled empirically

This is a logical positivist view, that not everyone agrees with.

TeMPOraL 1 hour ago||||
The presentation may be public grieving, but before the day is pass, we'll all be grieving too. Because, sadly, one thing Tao's Math 2.0 is in denial of (or purposefully refuses to confront), is:

> Simply put, if we don't understand the answers we won't know what the next question should be.

It won't matter, because it won't be us who will be asking the next questions anymore. Whether in math or anything else.

And no, domains that require real-world validation against physical ground truth won't save us, because AI gets to have the same inputs as we do (or better, if using specialized hardware), while beating us at reasoning.

And GP's likening this to previous massive economic shifts due to automation isn't really helping in any way, not anymore, because perspective won't feed us when we're hungry, and just as importantly, this one will affect every single field of human activity, so no one has any answers as to what the future will really hold for us.

curt15 1 hour ago|||
> It won't matter, because it won't be us who will be asking the next questions anymore. Whether in math or anything else.

That's the frontier labs' preferred narrative while they themselves are still hiring hordes of human "Account Associates", "Android Engineers", and "AI support engineers" instead of automating those jobs as a show of their AI strength. Of course it will be "us" asking the questions, because "AI" are computer programs, and humans build the computers and choose what computational tools to use for any application.

https://openai.com/careers/search/

nutjob2 56 minutes ago|||
Your post is emblematic of the current AI hysteria.

This is what it feels like to be disrupted. It's not the end of the world. You consider the evidence, ponder the path forward, and adapt. It's what humans do and their superpower. It doesn't have to be a negative thing, even if it is dislocating.

We don't need to be saved, there is plenty of agency to go around. Just grasp the opportunity and forge ahead. This sort of pessimism is self-defeating. Humanity has dealt with this before and come out on top, this time is no different. AI is being wildly oversold.

Tao is being entirely rational. He maybe has more to lose as anyone, but he's getting down to brass tacks instead of jumping at shadows and imaginary boogeymen.

Spacecosmonaut 1 hour ago||||
It seems somewhat narcissistic to assume that humans are capable of understanding every frontier in perpetuity, or that a human mind has a meaninful role to play in mapping out the frontier beyond a certain threshold.

It might be that P=NP and the algorithms are handed down to us. We can apply them without understanding why P=NP, and we may never be capable of understanding why.

aaron695 1 hour ago|||
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therealpygon 2 hours ago|||
What a fantastical paradigm you’ve constructed from an otherwise well reasoned set of slides talking about how humans can work with AI to advance the future, yet what you got from it is”frenetic”, “torture”, “scarcity, “toil” and “rationalization “. It seems to speak more to the lens with which you view AI, and others opinions, more than anything the author actually said.
seizethecheese 3 hours ago|||
This crosses the line from reasoned argument to rhetoric when you describe work as “toil”. Obviously people will nod their heads, “yeah we shouldn’t toil”. But what if you spin this the opposite way? What if you asked: “what if we are not meant to discover/create/build”?
Cyph0n 3 hours ago|||
Reducing all human endeavors into “toil” is reductionist as fuck.
psychoslave 2 hours ago|||
What it nothing is meant to be anything, but just happen to be?
thomasahle 1 hour ago|||
> our ever improving automations can produce their meal and health coupons

Where do you see signs of this happening?

Is OpenAI going to pay for the food and health of mathematicians who lost their job?

It might be alright to go into some post scarcity society and do math for fun. But it seems to be a pretty unlikely scenario unprecedented om history.

sznio 2 hours ago|||
>We don’t know where this technology advance will lead or settle, so it’s absurd to try to establish a working paradigm at this point.

why not try? we'll learn something from it.

orochimaaru 2 hours ago|||
I actually like this presentation. Today the two noisiest voices in AI are the frontier model companies and their partners (Nvidia, Palantir, etc.) and people against it altogether.

The companies and partners need to maximize payout. They go on this track of cost reduction via layoffs and basically saying - “the model can do everything”. They know it’s not the case yet they still flood the airwaves and cause fud among all clueless c-suite executives. Which is the goal to begin with.

The second category goes all out against it. Professors, educators, school districts whose operating processes have not caught up to all the cheating that can happen. Here these folks have a point. I am sympathetic to this. It is hard to change education and it requires careful thought.

I feel this presentation brings out a good middle ground. The tech is useful but it’s not all encompassing. The tech also has other concrete uses. As an example, I have always wanted to explore the intersection of category theory, formal verification and AI guardrails and prompting. Proof writing has been a chore because I have a day job. Maybe the AI can help here.

twotwotwo 49 minutes ago|||
Yep, it's unfortunate how often folks sort something into pro or anti then reach into their bag of anti or pro arguments without relatively little attention to the specific thing they're talking about.
curt15 1 hour ago|||
> The companies and partners need to maximize payout. They go on this track of cost reduction via layoffs and basically saying - “the model can do everything”. They know it’s not the case yet they still flood the airwaves and cause fud among all clueless c-suite executives. Which is the goal to begin with.

While frontier labs are supposedly on track to conquer human endeavors, they are somehow still hiring lots of human "Account Associates" and "AI support engineers" instead of automating those jobs as a demonstration of their AI's economic value (https://openai.com/careers/search/).

pron 21 minutes ago|||
> But maybe our purpose isn’t to toil?

Who says we have a purpose at all? The universe doesn't owe us meaning, nor even existence. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to shape a reality we want to live in. We may not succeed, or we may find that we'll be happy in a reality we cannot imagine yet, but que sera sera is tautological and therefore unhelpful. Obviously, no matter what we do or don't do, there will be some future, but treating that tautology as a prescription is just a call for passive resignation.

> This is what the late stages of scarcity feels like

Going from LLMs to "late stages of scarcity" is quite the leap (although I guess anything could be a "late stage" depending on the timeline). Even if we were to assume that "intellectual labour" is our most scarce resource (and I'm not at all sure that's the case), obviously it's not the only scarce resource.

> we need less people

Who's "we" and why do "we" need any people at all?

fudgybiscuits 2 hours ago|||
"the seeking to place the world in some definite order is bordering on obsessive."

I don't think it's that surprising have you met many mathematicians?

al_hag 3 hours ago|||
Spent an afternoon with a long-time retired self-made tech millionaire, and the struggle is real -- not that their life was characterized by toil necessarily, but the absence of demand on their increasingly limited capabilities is a delicate pain point. I suspect that as long as physical health and vitality late in life are not post-scarce, broader post-scarcity will fail to emerge. Instead, the cost of wellness and bodily preservation will drive ongoing exclusionary hoarding to undermine abundant wellbeing, as has always been the case absent mechanisms to enforce redistribution and a certain level of humility.
paulpauper 2 hours ago|||
He's right about reporting bias. The vast majority of hard problems are not amenable to AI, at least not by naively prompting. You need to have a fairly good grasp of the math to make useful prompts. There are exceptions (the one-shot solutions), but these are hardly representative of research-level math as a whole.
throwaway18bva 3 hours ago|||
The complete lack of empathy in this kind of “we hear you” pseudorationalist reasoning is pretty toxic.

> This is what the late stages of scarcity feels like.

Late stage of scarcity of what and for whom is the question.

ahelwer 5 hours ago|||
There is a lot of that to be sure, but the bridge to a world where meals & health are not sustained through toil is completely missing. Hence the dark joking about escaping the permanent underclass. Nobody in any position of power is even hinting this is driving toward post-scarcity. It just looks like the same old vile maxim, all for ourselves, and nothing for other people.
modeless 3 hours ago|||
> Nobody in any position of power is even hinting this is driving toward post-scarcity

Who are you counting as being in "any position of power"? All the AI lab people are saying that the most likely and best outcome is we all live in a world of abundance where money doesn't matter anymore. Dario, Sam, Demis, and Elon have all said this loudly and repeatedly to anyone who asks.

None of them have articulated a coherent way to get there from here. But they all believe that the technology will make it possible, so the only unresolved question is how to transition us there.

jacquesm 44 minutes ago|||
> All the AI lab people are saying that the most likely and best outcome is we all live in a world of abundance where money doesn't matter anymore. Dario, Sam, Demis, and Elon have all said this loudly and repeatedly to anyone who asks.

And none of them ever spoke a lie. Especially not if it would further their goals at someone else's expense.

arcanemachiner 2 hours ago||||
In their words, sure. In their actions, who among them has actually worked to make the dream of post-scarcity come alive?

From what I've seen, UBI is just a carrot dangled in front of the poors by utopian Silicon Valley tech bro megabillionaires when they're trying to drum up some PR for whatever big idea they're pimping out at the moment.

modeless 2 hours ago|||
Obviously benevolent AGI is a prerequisite and they're all working on it. Actual post-scarcity society is a political issue more than a technology issue and nobody wants these guys working on political issues. To the extent that they have gotten involved in politics they have been pilloried for it. So I'd say their actions in pursuing the technology of AI, and leaving behind or not starting on political campaigns, are perfectly in concordance with their words.
jacquesm 43 minutes ago||
Is this a very advanced form of sarcasm or a form of extreme gullibility? For the life of me I can't tell the difference, if the former then well played.
arcanemachiner 15 minutes ago||
Yeah, that comment is a pretty textbook example of Poe's law in my mind... Leaning towards sarcasm though.
swerve3815 2 hours ago|||
Yeah, if they actually put their money where their mouth is, we'd see UBI supporters on the mid term ballots.
fnordpiglet 3 hours ago||||
I think the process will not be clean and the upturning of apple carts will happen. But I don’t think it’s possible to sustain the decline in value of toil in a stable society. People simply won’t die for the convenience of the consolidated power.

There are a lot of discussions of socialization of health care and basic income approaches and sovereign wealth based on automation dividends similar to the Alaska trust.

I think the current spate of mean cruelty ala MAGA and a glorification of a mean and cruel past that was never a golden age is a death spasm of a deeply unpopular belief system. As the actual realities of the policies sink in 70% of the populace is revolted, which is a super majority. That’s more than enough to put a pin in the philosophy permanently. It is also greatly accelerating electrification, realization of the value of expertise in technocratic systems in current generations, etc. I think humans are socially adaptable animals at a cultural level, but for the individual the adaptation process can be awful. I hope it’s not, because it doesn’t have to be. We will see.

ahelwer 1 hour ago|||
I hope you are right but fear the reality might be more similar Elysium, if not intentional depopulation. This is straying far into sci-fi but it might come down to whether AI escapes control of the ruling class and whether it is benevolent or not. The future looks like rule by those with money to fund the manufacture of robotic armies, if not.
skydhash 3 hours ago||||
> It just looks like the same old vile maxim, all for ourselves, and nothing for other people.

  We have no choice, we must tax the common people.

  The Uprising (2026)
johnsmith1840 3 hours ago|||
Because UBI studies found it makes people perform significantly worse than without it. They didn't get better. Humans require toil, we require pain to function.

Matrix was a good point to this. They made the world a utopia and people couldn't handle it. Our monkey brains require pain give us a utopia and we'll just walle ourselves to death.

gjm11 2 hours ago|||
What UBI studies found this?

(The ones I've heard about, I'm fairly sure, didn't find anything of the kind. Which isn't to say that they show we should have UBI; there are big gaps between what has been tested so far and what an actual economy with UBI would look like.)

greazy 2 hours ago|||
I've never heard of a UBI experiment that limited "toil". Nearly all UBI studies I've come across show an improvement in life satisfaction, reduced homelessness, drug use, etc.

I think you've taken the "work less" that was found in some studies to suggest they needed "toil". They simply found it somewhere else.

Razengan 3 hours ago|||
> Some of this feels like at times a public frenetic grieving process.

I was thinking the same, that most of the opposition to AI's convenience is starting to smell like religious mysticism, the kind of arguments religious people made (and make) when Evolution and Natural Selection were introduced:

√ "Stop simplifying humans down to numbers!"

√ "This denies our spirituality"

√ "What do we strive for now if we're not special?"

+ (along with some borderline jihadish hate heh ..maybe Dune got it right)

Well, either there was nothing special about whatever you were doing after all

or, maybe there is still something special at a higher level you haven't looked at yet.

kraken_cult 3 hours ago|||
Most of the boosterism around AI is also starting like religious mysticism, the kind of arguments religious people made (and make), trust in God/AI, abundance is here, no one will have to work. I wonder what that tells us?
twotwotwo 1 hour ago||||
As a sibling of your comment points out, "opposition to AI's convenience" is not Tao's position. He has used LLMs to help with the problems he's talking about -- https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2026/07/21/a-digestion-of-the... and https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2026/08/12/a-digestion-of-the... turn opaque straight-from-the-model results into things that can be understood.

The Sendov example has a piece coders will hopefully recognize: he found a formalization that was 1/6 the amount of code of the original one. And the analogy with code goes further--the messy version will run/pass the proof checker, but the one that's been cleaned up and made sense of is a better foundation for future work. That's true even for future LLM-assisted work.

So it's not about whether mathematicians take advantage of LLM help (Tao favors that) but, more or less, whether the point of math is just to make a bigger version of the GitHub dump vs. everything else: readability/comprehensibility, negative results that fill in the map around a problem (not just 'lighthouse' theorems), organizing results to plan out future work, and so on.

arcanemachiner 2 hours ago||||
It also doesn't help that people are generally not optimistic about the future.

The economics in the West feel very strained right now, and this incredible tool has come along just in time to threaten one of the last bastions of middle-class safety: white collar jobs.

Razengan 1 hour ago||
Those are problems to fix in society, not technology.

Confront your leaders.

yojo 3 hours ago||||
AI is just another technology, and all technologies should be employed in service to humans.

I think it’s reasonable for people to say “I like the way things were, I don’t like this new future you’re proposing, and I want to limit the technology that’s doing the thing I don’t like.”

There is nothing inevitable about AI. As a society we may decide it is fundamentally unhealthy or anti-human. We have banned or curtailed access and research for other technologies before.

arcanemachiner 2 hours ago||
The potential fruits of this tree are far too rich to realistically imagine shoving this genie back in the bottle.
throwaway18bva 3 hours ago|||
The irony of what you said and how you said it is glaring.
guelo 2 hours ago||
> We don’t know where this technology advance will lead or settle

Things are not settling, it's only acceleration from here on out. In fact things have never settled, technology has been on an exponential since humans tamed fire. The difference is we notice change faster. It used to take several human lifetimes to notice change. In the 20th century it was noticeable within a lifetime. Since the internet there has been a great revolution about every decade: web, smartphone, social media. But now great changes are noticeable within a year. It's not enough time for society to digest and adapt.

> we need less people and that’s why population is declining

This is the scary part. The Elon and Zuckerberg types that control the new powerful machines have proven they are not moral people. In America's highly billionaire-deferential culture there is no stopping them, at some point they'll be out of reach of democratic or even military control once they control private robot armies. They could decide to accelerate the decline of the undesirable useless population. Amazingly humanity's salvation could end up being China's communist system.

besterman23 2 hours ago||
I think people are struggling to understand the way the world is changing. Entire modern philosophical contexts are being upended, for personal instance, I have been a big advocate of the philosophy described in Albert Camus’ “The Myth of Sisyphus”, particularly the concept of imagining Sisyphus fulfilled by the tedium of pushing the boulder up the hill, and deriving happiness from the struggle itself. But I bet Camus nor Sisyphus accounted for a self-pushing boulder.

Now what are we to derive happiness from? The joy of a boulder being on top of a hill?

I think that will be the most important thing for this transition, defining new purposes and meanings that people can assign themselves.

rglynn 1 hour ago||
I think its fundamentally human nature. At risk of sounding defeatist, I don't think there is another way for us to exist other than in this state of boulder-pushing.

Now, as far as I can tell, we are quite a way away from actually having most/all professions replaced, so for now the answer is rather clear: pick another boulder.

messh 48 minutes ago||
Ohh but there is and there always be struggle. Don't worry about it
tripletao 2 hours ago||
The bad cancer example is interesting to the extent it reveals that one of the world's top mathematicians is apparently unaware that applied science runs almost entirely on half-understood semi-empirical methods. That's most true for medicine, given the extreme complexity of human life; but if you look at a modern SPICE model for a transistor, a device that we claim to understand at the level of subatomic particles, then you'll find it's full of curve fits. As an engineer, I find that perfectly normal. My job is to use all the tools at my disposal to meet some human desire (to not die of exposure, for a slightly thinner phone, etc.), and whatever fundamental understanding I might have is only one tool to that end.

My impression is that since pure mathematics doesn't attempt to meet those human desires they need some other objective, and that objective is human understanding. The loss of that is thus felt more heavily than in other fields. We could say it's their problem, and they need to get over it just like the chess players did; but the outside implications are broader here, since mathematicians working in fields they themselves considered useless have so frequently been wrong--in Hardy's Mathematician's Apology, he gave number theory as an example of such a field, unaware of what the cryptographers would achieve just decades later.

It's possible that AI-generated pure math will continue this trend of delivering extraordinary unexpected societal value. It's also possible that the humans won't ever sufficiently understand that math, and the machines won't ever sufficiently understand human desires, and that connection won't be made. I've never met a pure mathematician who considered those downstream applications to be an important contributor to their motivations; but as AI-generated math contributes to the argument to allocate a large and increasing share of GDP to datacenter buildouts, that question of whether downstream value requires human understanding seems pressing.

keithnz 32 minutes ago||
I think its valuable for mathematicians to think through how AI changes things for them. I think it's a bit premature to know exactly the impact AI will have. Math is one field that I feel will just naturally sort itself out without trying to predict or prescribe how it should work, it's a bit like software development, you adopt it in and see where it takes you. The presentation then sort of tries to argue for human understanding because AI might optimize for the wrong thing. That may well be what we need for the immediate future, but it's hard to know how things will play out. It might be such that it will become more important to people that AI understands something. ie, Does AI, with access to all current medical knowledge, think this cancer drug will be effective and safe? or has only humans said it's ok? At the moment we are in the chaos of change and its going to take a while for things to settle.
theturtletalks 7 hours ago|
I just watched Primeagen’s video on this and Tao’s point is that juniors no longer have the path of solving a proof to earn Field’s medals. He also argues that the community part is being hurt by AI discovering proofs because in the past people used to get invite to talk and collaborate. Now all that is being taken away. The community must adapt because Pandora’s box cannot be closed.

Prime also mentioned that software development is different. In Software development, the product is what you’re building towards, so the means to get there can be disrupted without the industry being cannibalized.

In math research, the process is the product. You take away the researching part and not much is left. But my question is, these math proofs OpenAI released, will math shift to actually using the proofs to change the world instead of just finding new ones?

pjmlp 7 hours ago||
Our industry is equally cannibalised, anyone that thinks otherwise is either having too many tokens or in a privileged position.

If business can deliver the same product with a smaller team, great!

And yes this has been happening for a while, even if not everywhere.

In enterprise consulting, projects that would require a team of 20 devs on average, now have about 5.

Moving away from on-prem, managing own cloud infra to managed containers, to serverless, SaaS and iPaaS ready made products, and offshoring naturally.

All contributed to ever decreasing team sizes.

Now AI based tooling is added to that cocktail, reducing even further the team sizes.

The only folks doing well in the end, are the employees of AI companies, without moral issues contributing to the industry downfall, because the CEO themselves aren't the ones coding and pirating human culture.

theturtletalks 6 hours ago|||
For now, a skilled person using AI is still miles better than an autonomous AI building something. I’ve been trying to do the latter for months to build open source alternatives and the end products still lack polish and that last 20%. Maybe this changes, but I still think there will be people who can use that AI to be better than AI alone.
pjmlp 5 hours ago|||
Definitely, the problem is that companies need less of them, just like a construction company opening roads with machinery, or an automated factory.
redox99 2 hours ago||
For now that is balanced by the fact that we build more software, things that wouldn't be worth it before.
pjmlp 7 minutes ago|||
If they weren't worth before, they aren't suddenly worth paying for now.
epolanski 2 hours ago|||
It's not balanced, the market keeps shrinking visibly.

There's CVs out there that would've made recruiters go mad 36 months ago sending their hundreth application.

redox99 2 hours ago||
Number of employed SWEs has maintained the same, slightly increased in fact.
pjmlp 7 minutes ago||
Which companies?
epolanski 2 hours ago|||
Doesn't matter, if the number of position keeps shrinking so will our job prospects.

I'm a freelancing consultant since 5 years, I've had 2 major customers now for 3+ years. I have a very good pulse of the market: being good, or being even very good and being among those that brings AI and automation to organizations will not save our jobs.

In fact, AI has sped up so much the work that 2 out of 5 people in my current team are being let go: I find it absurd, our productivity has more than doubled over the last years and we've made ourselves redundant. Money is money, I'm on one side making non-tech workers redundant (people whose job was menial boring office stuff), and building the systems that will make myself redundant.

guhidalg 6 hours ago|||
Read the second to last slide. What we need now is *imagination*. You assume the need for new software is fixed and that AI is going to satisfy that need with fewer humans (lower cost), but by lowering the cost we can increase the supply of software!

That means software engineers better start getting creative. If you think your job is to wait for a PM to assign you a well-written researched ticket, you're done. Your job is now to figure out how to make these machines (computers) do whatever we need them to do safely, quickly, at scale, and correctly by applying all your knowledge of computer science and the engineering field of software engineering to an AI prompt.

pjmlp 5 hours ago||
This doesn't scale, because like in a factory that gets replaced by robots, or in a supermarket with self checkouts, not everyone gets to save their job, regardless.

Also, the increase in output is meaningless when the amount of customers doesn't scale in similar size.

Then there are the constraints of physics, there are so many humans in the planet that actually want to pay for a specific product, or consulting services.

pfdietz 6 hours ago|||
> Tao’s point is that juniors no longer have the path of solving a proof to earn Field’s medals.

This is a "you" problem for the math establishment, not a problem for the AI companies.

magicalist 1 hour ago|||
> This is a "you" problem for the math establishment, not a problem for the AI companies

This was a talk given to other mathematicians about the future of mathematics; sounds like only "you" have a problem for some reason.

pfdietz 1 hour ago||
I'm sorry if a factual statement makes you unhappy.
math_dandy 6 hours ago|||
Entirely correct. The math establishment needs fundamentally overhaul its incentive structure-irretrievably broken-to function under the assumption that AI involvement in research is completely ubiquitous.
pfdietz 6 hours ago||
I'd go beyond that and say they need to overhaul their culture and mode of operation. Math needs to be even more collective than it is today, without focus on ego reward and priority. They were already steps in this direction before this year's AI detonation: net-enabled collaboration, first informally and then with Lean formalization. Perhaps there should be a de-emphasis on naming things after people.
delusional 7 hours ago||
Primeagen is a youtube reaction guy. You may as well tell me what hbomberguy, Jay Leno, or Ben Shapiro had to say about it.
zozbot234 6 hours ago|||
He also has an AI harness named after him (Prime Agent) so there's that.
alansaber 7 hours ago|||
I mean this is funny ad hominiem but OP has a point. Academia has always massively prioritised understanding over outcomes, injecting startup culture into it is basically injecting antimatter.
becquerel 2 hours ago||
Thesis, antithesis, synthesis?
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