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Posted by lovewins 4 hours ago

Florida's HOAs and condo associations are making the housing crisis worse(hoaspy.com)
133 points | 222 commentspage 2
kvuj 3 hours ago|
How would foreclosing make the housing crisis worse? Wouldn't another family purchase the home thus creating a net zero?
motionlessveloc 1 hour ago||
It often takes years between "HOA puts lien on house" and "house is foreclosed and sold", and during that time the house is in limbo, the owner can't sell it and buyers can't buy it.
bigyabai 3 hours ago||
Between the foreclosure and sale, who is paying to bring the property up to HOA code?
weberer 3 hours ago||
The party who foreclosed the house and is currently selling it. Who else could it be?
dcrazy 3 hours ago|||
Why would you assume that? There’s no prohibition on selling a home with code deficiencies as long as you disclose them.
tyrabound 2 hours ago|||
Not only that, buying these types of HOA foreclosures can also come with other liens that are not disclosed at auction.
AnimalMuppet 3 hours ago|||
Right, but such things tend to knock down the sale price by approximately the amount to cure.
saghm 3 hours ago|||
Maybe the buyer after the price is inflated by the extra cost that was unnecessarily incurred by the HOA
gruez 2 hours ago||
But that waters down the argument to the point of meaningless. For instance, did the egg shortage make the housing crisis worse, because every potential homebuyer has less money to buy a house?
groos 2 hours ago||
The way to deal with a bad HOA is to get on the board. Normally, HOA boards attract the most petty minded people because most of the normal people living in the community are too busy but if a bunch of like-minded people get on the board, they can bring sanity back.
pdonis 1 hour ago|
> if a bunch of like-minded people get on the board, they can bring sanity back.

This sounds good, but I don't think it generally works. The problem is that the petty minded people are also the ones who don't have anything else to do with their time, so they can expend all their effort on being petty. Whereas the normal people have other things to do with their lives, and simply don't have the time to deal with all the pettiness, and if they end up on the board, they now don't have a choice: their lives are basically hostage to the petty people who keep taking up their time with bogus issues that can't just be ignored because the structure of the HOA requires some kind of response.

PLenz 59 minutes ago||
The main purpose of HOAs is to privatize government and taxes into managememt company hands
mym1990 3 hours ago||
I can prompt an LLM to refute this and it would give me 5 reasons HOAs are making things better. Hard to read this and really come away with a sense of what the truth is. HOAs and homeowners have always been at odds but HOAs do provide some benefit in large communities. I hardly feel like they are making the “home crisis” worse.
carsoon 3 hours ago||
You can prompt an llm and make it give you 5 reasons for any argument. LLMs are very good at writing highly convincing things that sound logical but may or may not be based in reality.

Would be better to say "I can run a research agent session and it can pull 5 data trends and papers that show the HOA are making things better" (I dont know if this is true and I did not do it)

I don't really think HOAs are the biggest driver of home prices/availbility one way or the other though.

watty 3 hours ago|||
I think that's his point as this article reads like that exact prompt. Pure LLM garbage.
foltik 2 hours ago|||
And this is of the typical quality of what you’d get.

80% incoherent narration of random numbers, all down to the 1’s place so it looks super duper precise and impressive if you squint and don’t think too hard, like the “author” seems to have done.

amanaplanacanal 3 hours ago|||
To an extent they might make sense where there are shared facilities that need to be funded, like a swimming pool or something. Most of what they seem to do is just bullshit though.
abakker 3 hours ago|||
You can accomplish this without an HOA, also. That’s just a non-profit. The idea that deed restrictions and dues are tied together is a serious overstep, in my opinion.
sgarland 3 hours ago||||
Yes. I lived in an HOA neighborhood in Texas that was fine. Dues were $25/month, and from that we got a nice community pool, and a legitimately nice Christmas party: they’d rent food trucks that were pre-paid, put up a Santa village, bring in VR rides, etc. All paid for from dues. They also really did not bother you if you were making an attempt at keeping your place looking decent.

Then I moved to one in North Carolina that was god-awful. Dues started at $65/month and went up every year. They’d send out neighborhood reminders that a pressure-washing service would be in the neighborhood next week if anyone wanted to hire them; anyone who didn’t got notices a few weeks later that they needed to pressure-wash their driveway and/or house. I also had to buy a specific brand and sheen of paint to repaint my mailbox; of course, the lettering was only available from a single supplier.

I now live on an acre lot that sits between two neighborhoods. I have no HOA, and it is glorious.

technothrasher 21 minutes ago|||
I live on a shared driveway with two other neighbors. The zoning laws in my town require an HOA for any shared driveways. So I technically live under an HOA. But we’ve all agreed to not fund it or bring it to life in any way. We just work out the shared responsibilities of the driveway informally over a bottle of whiskey.
monksy 2 hours ago|||
> Then I moved to one in North Carolina that was god-awful. Dues started at $65/month and went up every year. They’d send out neighborhood reminders that a pressure-washing service would be in the neighborhood next week if anyone wanted to hire them; anyone who didn’t got notices a few weeks later that they needed to pressure-wash their driveway and/or house. I also had to buy a specific brand and sheen of paint to repaint my mailbox; of course, the lettering was only available from a single supplier.

There really needs to be a way to harm organizations that do this. The HOA system is setup where the organization is protected and given the ability to make these kinds of rules. The only real option you have in that is you have to pawn the property off to some poor sucker that will also run into this issue later.

CGMthrowaway 3 hours ago||||
>To an extent they might make sense where there are shared facilities that need to be funded, like a swimming pool or something. Most of what they seem to do is just bullshit though.

You can say the exact same about the government. To be clear, are you in favor of more liberty for homeowners, or are you in favor of the government stepping in to regulate HOAs?

easterncalculus 3 hours ago|||
The purpose of the system is what it does - providing retirees with even faker jobs than they gave up to go on vacation paid by the fools that still work.
ikmckenz 3 hours ago|||
> I can prompt an LLM to refute this and it would give me 5 reasons ... Hard to read this and really come away with a sense of what the truth is.

Are you arguing a meta point that there is no such thing as truth because LLMs can make you any counter argument to you want? That seems bleak. Argue against the actual points of the article.

plasticeagle 3 hours ago||
What points? Does the article make any points? I couldn't find any. For instance, point 1 ends with

"A foreclosure suit is not a lost home — most end when the owner, or the owner's lender, pays — but the pressure is the point."

Which makes no sense whatsoever. I thought they were making a housing crisis worse by forcing foreclosures, but now apparently "the pressure is the point." The point of what, exactly?

guax 3 hours ago|||
I can prompt and LLM to prove this and it gives me 5 reasons HOAs are making things worse.
stonogo 42 minutes ago|||
"HOAs and homeowners have always been at odds" might be the most succinct description of the problem that modern "homeowner associations" constitute.
johnnyApplePRNG 3 hours ago|||
That's not a reason to change your mind ... LLMs can refute anything you ask them to without thinking.
dyauspitr 3 hours ago|||
I wouldn’t want to live in a neighborhood without an HOA, especially in the south. If you don’t have an HOA like 30% of your neighbors are going to have a lot full of junk cars, houses patchily painted lavender and shitty unmowed front yards. However, I very carefully read all the fine print for what the HOA enforces and how much it costs before each home purchase. Some of them can be insane. I’ve seen up to $500 a month.
driverdan 2 hours ago|||
> houses patchily painted lavender

What's wrong with lavender? Why does everything have to be a boring tan or grey? You sound like the exact reason I would never buy a house with an HOA.

coded_monkey 3 hours ago|||
You care about unmowed frontyards? No wonder your country is going to shit if this is what you’re worried about.
BoggleOhYeah 3 hours ago|||
Barring any guardrails, AI would tell me that the Holocaust had redeeming qualities if I asked it.

They are not truth or judgment machines.

cyanydeez 3 hours ago||
[flagged]
mogwire 3 hours ago|||
How does this add to the conversation?

The constant history lesson of what something was 80-90 years ago but they aren’t that way anymore but they were doesn’t advance the conversation especially when it has no impact on the actual topic.

mullingitover 3 hours ago||
Adding some context, that they were started out with pretty harmful intentions, to the discussion about how they are harmful today is very on topic.

> 80-90 years ago

Today's HOAs are very frequently involved in racial discrimination suits for violations of the Fair Housing Act.

throwawayfifo 2 hours ago||
>Today's HOAs are very frequently involved in racial discrimination suits for violations of the Fair Housing Act.

No they're not.

mullingitover 2 hours ago||
Sorry, that wasn't my opinion I was trying to debate, that's just a fact reported by HUD[1].

[1] https://www.hud.gov/sites/dfiles/FHEO/documents/FHEO%20Annua...

throwawayfifo 4 minutes ago||
>Sorry, that wasn't my opinion

Ah, so it's a delusional belief not based on facts or reality.

>that's just a fact reported by HUD

Categorically false claim not made in your source. The linked article makes zero claims about HOAs being "very frequently involved in racial discrimination suits for violations of the Fair Housing Act."

howunfortunate 3 hours ago||||
Even if I accepted the premise that racial segregation was the sole reason for their creation, if that's no longer their purpose, why does it matter?
haunter 3 hours ago||||
> HOAs exist as a way to enforce racial segregation

How do HOAs enforce racial segregation in monoethnic countries?

"HOAs are most frequently found in the United States, Japan, Canada, Australia, and the Philippines, and to some extent in other countries, such as New Zealand, Israel, Mauritius, South Africa, most of the countries of the European Union, such as Denmark, France, Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, Ireland, Austria, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Greece, Sweden, Belgium, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Latvia, Lithuania, Cyprus, Luxembourg, Estonia, Slovakia and Slovenia, and some of the Latin American countries, such as Chile, Argentina, Brazil and Mexico."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeowner_association

otterley 3 hours ago||
The U.S., Canada, South Africa, Australia, and Brazil are not mono-ethnic countries.
throwawayfifo 3 hours ago|||
No. The Democratic Party exists as a way to enforce racial segregation.

Thats no longer the reason they still persist. But their creation was nothing but.

xnx 2 hours ago||
This is an ad to buy free public records.
dark-star 3 hours ago||
Can someone explain to me (an European) what purpose HOAs serve? I mean do they actually have any benefits? I only know them from videos where people are being harassed by them
pdonis 1 hour ago||
If you want a simple one-sentence description, I would HOAs are an example of the old saying about a beautiful theory being spoiled by an ugly fact.
RoadieRoller 2 hours ago|||
Look and feel of the house, paint, Pool Management, Park (if the community has one, and not the city managed one) Management, Yard Management (Trees, Plants, Mopping, Trimming), Trash (overflow vs contained, when to put trash out, when to take your trash can back, to keep it out of sight from street view and such) Regulations on whether a house can be given to AirBnb and such, Single Family staying vs multiple family, cars that can be parked on the road and you can ask Chatgpt for more if you want.

Overall, with America being a capitalist country (and Florida state being the best example of it), they want people to keep spending their money on something, and would never allow someone to just 'settle' and live a life without spending money. HOA, among other things property taxes and other city imposed taxes you are never "resting in peace" after retirement, but wait for your next notice to come - either from City or HOA.

coded_monkey 2 hours ago|||
As a fellow European, preventing the value of your house dropping because your neighbors didn’t clean up their front yard.
kccqzy 2 hours ago|||
That does not have to be the responsibility of HOAs. I have had a period where my previous gardener quit and I was looking for a new one; some weeds in the front yard grew too tall. The city sent me an official reminder. This was in a neighborhood without HOAs.
dark-star 2 hours ago|||
but why would you need an HOA for that? If your neighbor drops their junk on the street you can just call the cops on them yourself
mosura 2 hours ago|||
Same function as the laws about when you can mow in Germany, simply at a sub municipal level.
dark-star 2 hours ago||
So they are able to enact their own laws? That's pretty different from Germany, where a municipality cannot override laws from higher courts.
mosura 2 hours ago|||
A major strand in american conservatism is to believe, strongly, in laws being made as close to the people they apply to as possible. This is why there is such an undercurrent from that side of reducing the scope of the federal gov while allowing private entities to have their own rules on their areas.

The level to which German society proscribes behavior top down with the law simply wouldn’t be tolerated across the spectrum for the simple reason no one would agree what the rules should be, even if they share the European idea that everyone else should follow the rules they personally support.

dark-star 1 hour ago||
So what's stopping people from creating their own indivicual law, everyone for him/herself? That would be the closest you can get to the people ;-)
Zigurd 2 hours ago|||
In part it's the result of the American antigovernment tendency, at least in certain communities.
monksy 2 hours ago|||
There are HOAs in Europe. The Wohnungseigentümergemeinschaft comes to mind.
dark-star 1 hour ago||
That's different. They cant create new "laws", and they can't spy on you etc. Also that's just for one building usually (the building where you live in) not a whole community
monksy 1 hour ago||
HOAs can't create laws. They can create rules that are contract bound, but not anything criminal or physical based enforcement. (Taking away someone's home is civil)
driverdan 2 hours ago|||
They empower grumpy assholes to play police and impose their will on you.
Telaneo 2 hours ago||
[dead]
bluGill 2 hours ago||
Florida has a lot of people. The article never addresses the important questions - are these issues without merit?

If you want to live in an apartment, but - get the tax and investment advantages of owning then you need to do it via buying into a corporation of some sort. So they must exist.

If you are not paying on upkeep of your house they have to do something and that is going to be expensive, they have a right to get that money from whoever didn't pay not spread it out to the other owners.

While it isn't called foreclosure if you don't pay your property taxes your house will be foreclosed on. That an HOA can is just another entity.

There are a lot of people who live in Florida so I'd expect them to have a lot of HOAs. The only surprise is California doesn't beat Florida in this list, but that could well be a case of California has stupid laws and so you can't get the good parts of an HOA.

These is a lot to hate about HOAs. However the idea is sound and they can do good things. We need to stop the bad things that they do, but nothing that in the article points to anything bad.

xivzgrev 2 hours ago|
Exactly. HOAs can be a pain in the butt but they aren't taking peoples homes away Willy nilly

The only way you get in that situation is by not paying your dues. Some HOAs may be more or less aggressive in handling it. But when you can't pay your dues, the other homeowners have to pay for your share

Dues are just a mandatory part of being in HOA that reflect the costs of the community

pdonis 1 hour ago||
> The only way you get in that situation is by not paying your dues.

No, it isn't. You can also get in that situation by having the HOA cite you for a violation of its rules and regulations and you not fixing the violation.

An HOA acting in good faith will not do this unless it's actually necessary. But an HOA run by busybodies can cite you for things that aren't actually violations (and often what is or is not a violation can be subjective, because the language in the rules and regulations is often vague or ambiguous), but which you still have to take the time and energy to respond to--or else they can say you didn't fix the violation and put a lien on your house.

And if you do respond, now you're embroiled in an argument about whether what they cited you for actually is a violation or isn't, and you're arguing with bad faith actors who are not going to be reasonable. And who might put a lien on your house anyway--even though they're actually not supposed to do that if you're following the process established by the HOA (and often by state law) for disputes--and now you're faced with having to hire a lawyer and convince a judge that the lien should be dismissed.

andix 3 hours ago||
This is the result if people generally mistrust their local governments, defund them and then create little private villages (HOA governed). Turbo-capitalism wins once again ;)
teeray 2 hours ago||
The problem is that municipalities absolutely love HOAs. They get all the tax revenue and get to wash their hands of most responsibilities involved with them. From their perspective, they get to found little vassal townships where they can say “it’s your problem” to little people problems like “there’s too many potholes in the road” and “that sewer lift station is making weird smells.”

Oh, but if you want to do anything, you still need to pay those permit and inspection fees! No, we won’t help you find a paver at a reasonable rate even though putting those contracts out to bid is what we do all day long.

What is really bullshit is that HOAs aren’t granted a property tax abatement for absorbing many municipal functions.

pdonis 1 hour ago||
> From their perspective, they get to found little vassal townships where they can say “it’s your problem” to little people problems like “there’s too many potholes in the road” and “that sewer lift station is making weird smells.”

Roads and sewer are two things I've never seen an HOA have jurisdiction over; in every HOA community I've lived in, the municipality still owned the roads and the water and sewer infrastructure. The HOA was only responsible for things like mowing the grass in common areas and maintaining play equipment there.

amanaplanacanal 1 hour ago||
I understand why they do that though. Cities don't usually make enough money from property taxes to fund the infrastructure in the suburbs. That why they always seem to be on the verge of budget cuts, raising taxes, or bankruptcy.
bryanlarsen 1 hour ago||
And Florida plans on making it worse by cutting property tax limits.
plasticeagle 3 hours ago|
Sweet f'kin christ that website is unreadable.

Maybe HOA's are bad, maybe they're good, but the intellectual laziness required to shit this kind of garbage out onto the internet in place of genuine thought and analysis will fuckin kill us all.

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