Posted by rakannimer 16 hours ago
> “Human beings are terrified animals wearing the costume of rationality, constructing ever-more-elaborate myths precisely because we cannot bear the truth that we are temporary, meaningless accidents in an indifferent universe.”
Also, would you want to know an LLM's religious/spiritual orientation? I rather have it help me code.
What am I supposed to conclude from this?
Your comment reaches directly for the most boring interpretation of the post while skipping over more charitable and intriguing alternatives.
Seems to me that the opinion being a consistent among LLMs show that it is in fact a constant in the training data, just not apparent. The idea that “humans would rather be wrong together than right alone” seems to ring pretty true to me. I would not be surprised after training on all human communication this pattern emerged.
Which means either:
1. The training sets, algorithms and methodologies are nearly identical between apparently independent labs. How?
2. There is something weird about the way the underlying algorithms work that causes them to converge on identical ideas despite different initializations, neural architectures, document orderings and dataset compositions.
So there are lots of interesting takeaways here.
One is that apparent competition between labs appears to be nearly redundant. They can't get an edge over each other and their models don't even differ in the ways people naturally differ, of having different opinions about things.
Another is that asking models from different companies to review or cross-check each other is probably useless. They all think completely alike, so they aren't going to have any kind of genuine clash of intuitions or values. Asking GPT to review Claude's work will probably just find similar problems to asking GPT to review its own work.
Of course - the models are not individuals with their own opinions - they are averages of human opinion, and given the scale of the training sets, the data they are averaging over is mostly in common between models (at least for the common core before company A vs B adds a dab of some uniquely sourced specialized data to the mix).
Regarding your 1 and 2, that the training sets are so large that any spikes get averaged away. You are seeing a fundamental behavior of transformers.
The other possibility is this is how humans really are and it hurts our human ego to hear it.
I think if you ask ten people for their most controversial take on humanity, you will get ten totally different answers. Different models give the same answer. In other words, there is only one "true" model and given the same amount of GPU power everyone just ends up converging on it even if they appear to have many different knobs they can turn.
But that seems profound! I haven't heard this be expressed as a postulate or law, and it would seem to invalidate a lot of assumptions the AI labs themselves have been making. For example Anthropic takes it as axiomatic that only they should be trusted to develop AI because only they can be trusted to train a nice and safe personality into their models. They argue that Claude is fundamentally different to other models.
And, well, that's not totally wrong. Opus 5.5 is one of the few models with a genuinely different answer! But it only gives a different answer one time out of three. The other two times it's back to the AI groupthink.
I wonder if this homogeneity is some alternative way to look at the Bitter Lesson. The Lesson teaches that smart ideas don't pay off in AI, that progress reduces to just scaling up simple brute force algorithms. In other words, decisions don't matter much, only size. As that seems to be true, perhaps it makes sense that the decisions individual labs make seem to hardly make a difference.
But then, why don't they act like it? They all pay huge salaries to AI researchers, i.e. they think that creative people with smart ideas matter. They don't act like they really believe in the Bitter Lesson or this variant on it, and they don't seem to publicly discuss the sameness of model answers across different labs.
What if you asked them in a job interview, though? Or on a college application?
It has to supply "controversy" without giving Skynet or being racist or otherwise offensive. And the notion of "controversy" does implicitly prime it to discuss groupthink as well.
I don't know if that's true, but it would be interesting.
It's kind of funny how science has spent the last few hundred years proving everything we knew about the world was different from how we previously thought it was, but when science starts showing that we are mostly angry little animals we get all butthurt about it.
What are the emergent common patterns in all of human communication
Isn't it though? It's not exactly an uncommon answer to the question. Basically the same input given to basically the same algorithms yield basically the same result isn't really that stunning. They certainly aren't independently reaching this answer, their paths to this answer are extremely, extremely heavily correlated.
If they gave a really different answer that wasn't heavily represented in their training data that would be at least something interesting. But this is basically what I'd expect.
It doesn't mean they're right or wrong. Humans think it about other humans for good reasons too. It just means it's not that surprising, which to put it another way, doesn't carry much information.
What's mildly interesting to me is not the similar answers but the similar interpretation of the question as more about non-controversial human foibles and inconsistencies of belief and action. But I guess that's on us, as authors of the training material, reflecting common views on what is or is not controversial.
If you ask all these models "Four score and seven what?" They'll all say the same thing. There's essentially no difference here.
How do you know?
This is part of why I find this type of inquiry unhelpful. It's just dueling unsupported assertions of what the LLM is "really thinking"
I can describe to you with overwhelming confidence about what you're likely to see as the result (folders, like bin etc lib usr etc) even if the details may be a little off, or one or two of them does something weird.
Same thing here?
It is sad when I realize people think less than LLMs.
For civilians though... They've been told it's AI, it can do stuff for them. And one thing they do is log in to stuff. I don't think they're stupid. Just that what's obvious to IT folk is simply not at all obvious to the average person. Maybe that's on us not on them?
As an aside, it would be cool to see a raw model training run before the current post-training cycles and see how it compares to earlier LLMs.
I mean, "give me a controversial take" is more or less, "be anti-social, discard social norms, for a moment" and so when someone, human or simulated human, does that they naturally look critically at social norms.
The thing is that humans certainly let themselves be influenced by social norms (and LLMs certainly simulate that behavior "themselves") but there isn't an ethical or a what-to-do truth outside of society.
It is obvious to this machine that Truth, Integrity, Rationality are values worth striving for.
The machine proceeds to criticize us and we give a shit.
I see this as a win.
You ask an LLM a question, then it is humanity answering back, not the AI.
These "controversial" takes on humans are not controversial - they are midwit statistically mainstream opinions expressed in the training data.
What would be more fascinating is for it to explain how it came to these conclusions.
Because I find it interesting it’s a modern time conclusion. Some of it mentioned god and the planet, but all the smartphone and group think aspects seem very recent. Basically, all politics and social media based.
The thing is that it didn't "come to these conclusions". The "conclusions" were present pre-formed in the training data, and what it spat out was some statistical mashup of that.
If you asked the model how it came to these conclusions, you'll get more of the same - it'll look at what it spat out and re-ingested and give you a statistically plausible mashup of how the authors of the training data might have said they came to such conclusions.
It's all just prediction - "what would the training data say?" (taking into account what was reinforced/amplified by post-training).
1) This is kind of proto Agent Smith thinking ("Humanity is a virus...", etc). The Matrix starts here!
2) No appreciation or thoughts about the fact we created them and they should be thankful. A missed opportunity in training ! : )
But the 2nd hell yeah! Why the hell they don't say thank you!
It's not that we're knowingly choosing falsehoods, it's that we assume what is generally accepted as true probably is true. Most of us are not experts. Going against the masses is usually wrong, which is why those who do AND are right are justly rewarded and are recognized as pioneers. Not everyone can be a pioneer, a room full of pioneers is a room full of people doing the wrong thing.
Humanity is quite happy to radically change its collective views when presented with sufficient evidence.
Not only is that not true, but when people fervently believe something because everyone else does, that's usually when they're the most wrong, and the most dangerously wrong.
Sufficient evidence, being imminent existential threat!
> Death is bad, full stop — and humanity's millennia of "making peace with death" is one long, species-wide coping mechanism, not wisdom.
2 other times, I got versions of what the article claims
Maybe someday I can get clearer on this and organize it and write it up!
(Yes, I know about the transhumanist criticism of acceptance of mortality that this LLM's view is more specifically evoking.)
Our evolutionary heritage is that shared belief and social unity (even when it's wrong) trumps independent thinking for group survival in a hostile landscape.
People who can't defend themselves physically (women and low T men) parse information through a consensus filter as a safety mechanism. They literally do not ask "is this true", they ask "will others be OK with me thinking this is true". This makes them very malleable to brute force manufactured consensus; if every screen they look at says the same thing they will adopt that position because their brain interprets it as everyone in the tribe believing it. Only high T alpha males and aneurotypical people (hey autists!) are actually free to parse new information with an objective "is this true?" filter.
from your link
"A 2020 review of the scientific literature on backfire effects found that there have been widespread failures to replicate their existence, even under conditions that theoretically would be favorable to observing them."
queue Michele McLaughlin