Posted by xiaoyu2006 7 hours ago
and in practice I find it _very_ effective to express key ideas with some formal language where applicable. a little ebnf here, some snippets of python or prolog there or other languages there. and I find llms wonderful at filling in the dots and, and that's the topic here, to translate our semi formal conversation into rigorous, formal language.
and I dare one step further: I also find llms useful in formulating and refining technical proposals, for human peer review and llm driven implementation, and of course these proposals mix natural language prose with semi-formal and formal detail. think PEP-12 and PEP-1 style. and these then get work packages which each loop in a spec as in sdd.
seems to work just fine so far :-)
Dijkstra's arguments tend not to change their minds. I think the analogy takes hold because there is a kernel of truth in it. AI models now give us the magical ability to program in natural language, but the implication that an AI model is a form of compiler is deeply flawed. AI models don't replace compilers, they replace software developers. The reason software developers rarely look at assembly code is that compilers (and emulators and VMs) are able to precisely preserve the semantics of the original program.
A natural language spec is not a program, and there are many possible programs that can meet the spec. Software engineers and AI models turn specs into code, but the code is not the spec I think the analogy clouds our thinking about the value of programming languages as a tool for formally describing what the computer should do and enforcing properties of the program that should not be left to either humans or AI models to uphold.
I think "I'm working in a higher level of abstraction" is easier for some devs to say than "I asked somebody else to do the thinking and the work." I don't think there's anything wrong with asking an LLM to do the work. But pasting jira tickets into claude is not abstraction lmao.
I guess arguments on either side of this can get difficult for a reason that another commenter already mentioned: you can use LLMs on a wide spectrum of granularity. You can one-shot a whole project, or you can tell it to rename some vars in a single file. I guess there are uses that are probably closer to programming. But if you're not even looking at the code, I'd say that's closer to somebody else doing the work
No, they replace the need for a precise description of what you want the computer to do by a mechanism that's really good to fill in the gaps. But guesswork only takes you so far.
This stochastic nature existed before AI. Humans are stochastic too. Two engineers convert specs to code in two different ways. I would argue the distribution is wider among humans than among agents.
while both LLMs and humans are not 100% deterministic, I don't think that's the interesting part. It's both true that there are many assembly language programs that implement a C program and that there are many valid programs (in any programming language) that correctly implement a natural language spec. But there's a significant qualitative difference between the two types of translation and that would be true regardless of whether the translations are stochastic.
It would be interesting to state sane measurments that determine a "distance" between a spec and software that claims to implement it
Please go ahead and do.
So? Two compilers convert source to binary in two different ways.
I would argue that, in the absence of such evidence, we cannot conclude that the English-to-code conversion process is stochastic; it is merely not deterministic, which is altogether different.
Well, then, their interpretations of the spec are stochastic. Good enough for me, anyway.
You can interact with AI and say "code me a calculator" or "now declare a array of booleans to map to each of the keys in the UI and set the corresponding array position to true when the key is pressed".
These commands are written in natural language at such different levels of abstraction that is hard to put them in the same bucket. It would be fair to call the latter an imperative language with the LLM in the role of a compiler. That's very similar to how I use AI.
In my opinion, LLMs don't challenge anything.
And like with a team, many programs could meet what I asked for, but I check the behavior of what they built, not the code directly. I think of it as working on the level of an engineering director, who also doesn't review code directly. Each agent shows me its change running in the app, in a short narrated screen recording, like in a launch review for the director. When it's not what I meant, I say what, and it goes another round.
However you can't prevent some other people from working as software developers who write and read code.
Even with cars, you still walk. Even with factories, someone still craft handmade bags.
I've realized that the agent doesn't write 'good' code, instead my vague understanding of what I expect makes me think it does. When I look at the AI code, I see that there are more nuances and decisions that needed to be taken before writing the code. One would say that a spec would suffice, but then I remember TLA+, developed by Leslie Lamport to help developers think critically about their programs/algorithms. Sitting down and formally writing what I want to do helps me better understand the problem and come up with a real -not vaguely defined- solution.
The experiment in designing a language that resembled natural languages (English and Japanese) was not successful. -[1]- William R. Cook, AppleScript, HOPL IV
Now our new LLMs are different, because they don't use "language the resembled natural languages", but actual natural language. But the lesson is instructive nevertheless, because it gives us some empirical evidence to compare to Dijkstra's theoretical arguments.
And this is that natural language is at best a two-edged sword. Yes, there are benefits, but there are also huge drawbacks. And one problem is that the benefits are front-loaded and the drawbacks are long-term problems.
To me, one thing we are missing is that what LLMs do for us actually has 2 parts.
1. It allows us to use natural language, allowing us to be fuzzy.
2. It allows us to specify what we want at a much, much higher level than usual.
With our LLMs, these two are intrinsically linked. I think the whole would be much, much more valuable if we could separate them.
I have observed several samples where the business, when provided with a natural language configuration opportunity, will wind up staring blankly at the textarea until the original developer gives them a complete starting point.
I don't think "natural" language makes much of a difference unless you are already skilled in the art of developing useful engineering specifications. I often have to babysit the business through very basic boolean algebra concerns despite everyone having 3+ decades experience dealing with this stuff. Making everyone speak python could only make this worse, not better.
I use HN to keep myself warmed up on natural language expression. The difference between developers who post here prolifically and those who barely write one email a month is fairly shocking in my experience. If you intend to use a specific instrument to accomplish a complex task, you need to practice it constantly. Ideally every single day. There is no substitute for this. There never will be.
Apart of natural evolution of meanings, look at Orwellian limitations some (cloud) models impose on is that our natural language program become illegal. Due to topic or combination of words the program needs to be flagged and soon likely reported to three leter agency.
Next, RMS would ask: can you make your own natural language program compiler from scratch? I know we have (very expensive) local models, but wait until GPUs get a propper online subscriptions to work and surveillance taps.
With specification driven development, the prompts need to be very detailed in order to produce exactly what is required.
Also gave me plenty of opportunities to go above and beyond. I miss when that felt safe.
You didn’t collaborate with other engineers? Or what if the spec you were given was unclear in places? Forgive me, but the style you describe sounds incredibly collaborative, super transactional.
Massive? My introduction to programming (from noob to beginner level) has been like only 10 books worth of content. Including some alternative pathways like 3D, security, system administration,... To this day, I don't think I've reached 50 books of materials. And If I counted everything it would be still small.
Human learning is very efficient (not time wise, but cost wise, and even training data wise).
Ah, yes, I can fondly recall reading and internalizing every word available on the internet when I was young...
But for mature software eventually every single detail matters.
He's still quite correct. I generally see a machine as being "programmed in" whatever is tracked in source control. So as long as your git repo is tracking changes in Java, that's still programmed in Java, even if the Java was generated with the assistance of LLMs. I may consider the thesis of this article invalidated only when the majority of repos start tracking natural language rather than programming languages as the primary artifacts defining behavior of the software.
[1] For many people, the result is actually the mean not the best, but it's another topic.