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Posted by rramadass 23 hours ago

I don't understand quantum physics (2018)(www.southampton.ac.uk)
309 points | 244 commentspage 2
mietek 16 hours ago|
Unfortunately, this work perpetuates the misunderstanding of Bell's theorem and its implications with respect to hidden variable theories. See the Scholarpedia article on Bell's theorem for an in-depth discussion, including quotes from Bell himself, deeply frustrated at the misunderstanding.

https://scholarpedia.org/article/Bell's_theorem

ant6n 16 hours ago|
I see 502 bad gateway
mietek 16 hours ago||
It seems to be intermittent right now. Internet Archive can help.

https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://scholarpedia.org/artic...

sampo 21 hours ago||
I started to read from "3.1 The Ultraviolet Catastrophe" and this sentence

"The number of different wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation, N(λ)dλ, with wavelengths in a small interval between λ and λ + dλ, (dλ means a small interval in wavelength) can be shown to be proportional to 1/λ⁴."

doesn't make sense. It should not talk about a number of wavelengths, but the number of allowed standing-wave modes (number of eigenmodes that a mathematical solution to the electric field in the relevant situation has) in the small wavelength interval.

dekhn 14 hours ago||
I used to struggle with quantum physics- in the same way many others do- in that the model is not intuitive to people who think in terms of billiard-ball physics. But, I think it's clear at this point that all the observable data from well-run experiments supports QM better than the alternatives. IN particular, the observation of matter waves and double-slit experiment on atoms were what finally made me accept it. Entanglement doesn't make any sense to me, but I'm assured it can't be used to transmit information faster than the speed of light, so I can live with it :)
squiffy 20 hours ago||
How strange to see a familiar name here! I wasn't his PhD student but worked in the same department as Douglas Ross, and can only say that he was warm, extremely intelligent, with a very strong natural intuition about high energy physics, enjoyed puzzles, and wouldn't shy away from quizzing people giving talks. I remember he had a back and forth with a visiting speaker for about 20 minutes on some minutia!

I don't have much to add on the article itself except that it's almost certainly worth reading.

rramadass 19 hours ago|
Also see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50220891
immmmmm 21 hours ago||
I loved the book QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter by Feynman as a child. Funny enough I always saw QM from a path integral PoV, a decade before I got to learn the formalism
bananamogul 10 hours ago||
"I have used many photos and drawings which I have found on the Internet, and in many cases the source of such photos and drawings is not clear. I have assumed that images which appear on the Internet are in the public domain and do not need to be individually referenced."

That's a pretty bold assumption.

CamperBob2 10 hours ago|
I've always said (and been duly downvoted for it), "Don't want people to take it and reuse it? Don't put it on the Internet."

Sadly, being right about something like that does not, in fact, automatically entitle me to founders' shares in OpenAI or Anthropic. But I'll keep preaching it, nonetheless.

frumiousirc 22 hours ago||
I take issue with "understand". I agree QM can not be understood in terms of everyday experience. One must build experience, language and proper metaphor for the understanding. For example, in the intro Ross uses the example of explaining a waterfall to someone who never saw it. He says that can be done but he relies on implicitly the listener knowing what people on Earth may take for granted. That understanding of a waterfall can only happen if the listener already has some understanding of fluid flow and gravity. We do, but say a newly found alien friend from a dry environment that had never experienced fluid flow would not have the mental building blocks to understand it. Feynman gave a famous interview where he said, essentially, "no, I can't explain it to you because you are too ignorant" (he said it more politely). Going the other direction, Physics steeped enough in quantum theory do understand QM enough to have meaningful discussions free (at times) of rigorous math. They do this because they have a shared language, vocabulary, metaphor. Sure, they must rely on math and experiment to ground that understanding in truth but I guarantee they do not communicate understanding (solely) in math and measurement data.
spolitry 5 hours ago||
What interview was that?

The famous interview I know is when he said:

"I really can't do a good job, any job, of explaining magnetic force in terms of something else you're more familiar with, because I don't understand it in terms of anything else that you're more familiar with"

His point was that fundamental forces cannot be understood as "like" everyday objects, because we don't "understand" everyday objects except as applications of fundamental forces. Using those things to explain fundamental forces would just be circular. He can tell you that a stretching rubber band is due to the electric field, but he can't then turn around and "explain" that the electric field is like a stretching rubber band! Fundamental forces just are, and you understand them by studying them.

throwaway093020 15 hours ago|||
A useful analogy might be understanding quantum mechanics versus understanding a computer. In the early days of computing, an engineer might plausibly have known every component in a computer, understood how these components worked, and understood why each one was there. As computers got more complicated, no longer could anyone understand the entire system on that level. But still, as an individual engineer, you can understand the system at a high-level, and for each lower-level component, you can have an approximate idea of why it's there, what it does, and how to learn it in more detail if you ever have to. Any "why" question that you might have about it has a straightforward answer that can be stated in a few sentences.

With quantum mechanics, there's a lot that you have to accept when you learn the subject without understanding why. Why complex numbers? Why infinite-dimensional Hilbert spaces? Why non-commutative algebra? You can kind-of, with great effort, make arguments that all of these are at least reasonable. But nobody really understands "why" at a level beyond "because the theory works".

dahart 19 hours ago|||
That’s not the meaning of “understand” that was being used. This article points out that nobody understands QM well enough, not even the experts. (Do note the author is an expert!) By “I Don’t Understand”, what he actually means is that QM is incomplete in the same way that Newtonian Mechanics is incomplete; it doesn’t explain physics well enough to understand or explain what’s really there. This is, of course, why there’s an ongoing debate among the experts about what QM even means and how to interpret it.
453yuh46 20 hours ago|||
You can imagine waterfall of sand - the fluidity here comes from all those small sand particles moving simultaneously.

>>>Physics steeped enough in quantum theory do understand QM enough to have meaningful discussions free (at times) of rigorous math.

That sounds a lot like gate keeping and has no actual backing - to understand QM you still need to understand Physics, as mechanics of both of them are explaining each other - the scale is the only difference.

gus_massa 18 hours ago||
The idea is that you can discuss using hand waving while drinking coffee, but after that you must write the complete mathematical calculation, so there is no gate keeping.

Most of the times the formal version with equations agree with the hand waving, but sometimes you have nasty surprises and must learn to hand wave better.

soliax 22 hours ago|||
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charcircuit 22 hours ago||
Why can AI generate pictures of waterfalls if it has never lived on Earth?
chistev 23 hours ago||
"I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics."

- Richard Feynman

stratos123 22 hours ago||
Whether this was even true in Feynman's time, it's much less true now.
tim333 21 hours ago||
With the meaning that Feynman meant it was true then and now. From QED:

>The next reason that you might think you do not understand what I am telling you is, while I am describing to you how Nature works, you won't understand why Nature works that way. But you see, nobody understands that. I can't explain why Nature behaves in this peculiar way.

ahartmetz 23 hours ago||
I also like "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics" which is supposedly also from Feynman.
chistev 22 hours ago|||
I think it's one of those famous quotes that was never said. The one I quoted was what he apparently said.
card_zero 20 hours ago||
Similar to a quote from Niels Bohr, "those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it".
atemerev 22 hours ago|||
Quantum _mechanics_ cannot be understood, it is full of paradoxes. It contradicts classical EM and special relativity, among other things. A toy theory that was an important step to what came later.

Feynman's own QED is a part of QFT, but this is no longer quantum mechanics. Special relativity and quantum physics are reconciled since then. Now, we only need to reconcile GR and QFT, but this leap was so far beyond our attempts to scale it. Yet, QED/QFT/SM can be "understood" as there are fewer obvious paradoxes that plagued QM.

_heimdall 21 hours ago|
Unpopular opinion I think, but I still believe the physics world was wrong to chase the Copenhagen interpretation.

The math does indeed work, and many experiments and practical uses seem to show that there is something to quantum broadly. But to throw determinism out the window and believe that quantum is fundamentally probabilistic, and that one can never really run scientific experiments because observing state collapses superposition, has always seemed asinine to me.

I could be completely wrong, but it's always seemed obvious to me that the need for probabilities in quantum is a clear indicator that something is missing in the theory. I'm never surprised when a person can't understand quantum as its described today.

lefra 20 hours ago||
It's completely counterintuitive, but that's how it works experimentally. For example:

Measure the spin of electrons in direction X (that's done with a weirdly shaped magnet). You'll get either +1 or -1 in a conveniently chosen unit system. That's already weird, you'll never measure +0.5 for example. Keep only the +1 electrons. You can measure them again and again, you'll always get +1 in the X direction.

Now measure those electrons in the Y direction, you'll also get either +1 or -1.

But now, if you measure in the X direction again, you'll get +1 or -1 with 50% probability; although before measuring in the Y direction, these electrons always had spin +1 in the X direction.

_heimdall 20 hours ago||
Oh I get that experiments prove out. What has always been unintuitive to me to the point of seeming wrong is that said spin is random and lives in a probability cloud that is probabilistic only until we observe it.

The math works and the experiments work, but it feels like a broken clock situation. It happens to correlate well, but the understanding and models are missing something in the actual underlying physics that, if understood, would throw the whole randomness part out the window.

empiricus 34 minutes ago|||
Probability cloud? we would be lucky :) it lives in the complex square root of probability distribution. why would nature even do this
lefra 20 hours ago||||
> [the] spin is random and lives in a probability cloud that is probabilistic only until we observe it.

My mental model of it is kinda reversed. The maths assign a specific, deterministic state to each electron between each measurement. However, the "left" state is equal to "(up + down) / sqrt(2)". It then follows that when we measure an electron that is in the "left" state along the vertical direction, we get 50% up and 50% down: the probabilistic behavior happens when measuring, which "forces" an electron that was in the "left" state to become either "up" or "down".

I agree though that it would be less frustrating if there was some property of the electrons that would allow to predict in which state it'll collapse.

bluepnume 10 hours ago|||
This is called the "measurement problem" and nobody has a good answer to it.
karussell 21 hours ago|||
It has been shown that you can keep determinism (Bohm etc), but what follows is not necessary something you'll find more intuitive or cleaner or more logical.
_heimdall 21 hours ago||
I haven't been sold by pilot-wave theory, adding hidden variables to attempt to get rid of randomness feels like a cheat rather that a realistic view of how reality would work.

Unrelated, but I also wish scientists properly used the term "theory".

spolitry 5 hours ago||
Reality is in no way constrained by what you feel is realistic.
_heimdall 55 minutes ago||
It also is not confined by what theoretical math works on paper.
stevenhuang 12 hours ago||
Why should it be asinine? The universe is under no obligation to be understandable to humans.
_heimdall 9 hours ago||
Completely agree. I'm happy to accept that I won't understand it, I take issue with the idea that some believe they do understand it and that the universe is based on random probability that can't be measure or scientifically measured without ruining the test.
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