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Posted by bradley_taunt 8 hours ago

AlpineBSD(wiki.alpinebsd.org)
149 points | 132 commentspage 2
craftkiller 7 hours ago||
Neat project. One thing I don't see covered: is everything going to be statically linked like it is on Alpine Linux? Is statically linking libc advisable on a NetBSD kernel? I know (unlike Linux) the FreeBSD kernel ABI can change every major release, but I'm not familiar with NetBSD's approach.
Intralexical 7 hours ago||
Alpine Linux is not statically linked. It provides a musl environment which makes it easy to statically link your own builds, but software shipped as part of the distro is usually dynamically linked.

  $ docker run -it --rm alpine

  / # apk add cmd:ldd
  / # ldd $(which ash)
          /lib/ld-musl-x86_64.so.1 (0x7f4cb4d1d000)
          libc.musl-x86_64.so.1 => /lib/ld-musl-x86_64.so.1 (0x7f4cb4d1d000)

  / # apk add cmd:python3
  / # ldd $(which python3)
          /lib/ld-musl-x86_64.so.1 (0x7fd630cab000)
          libpython3.12.so.1.0 => /usr/lib/libpython3.12.so.1.0 (0x7fd63069a000)
          libc.musl-x86_64.so.1 => /lib/ld-musl-x86_64.so.1 (0x7fd630cab000)
craftkiller 6 hours ago||
Woah, TIL! My Alpine Linux world view has just been shattered. Static linking was frankly *the* selling point of Alpine Linux for me and it turns out I was just plain wrong.
0x457 5 hours ago||
Alpine selling point was that it's small, which was selling people only for people that either don't understand docker layers or can't make Dockerfile correctly.

Alpine’s connection to static linking is mainly that it provides a convenient musl build environment. A fully static binary can run in `FROM scratch`.

craftkiller 4 hours ago|||
> A fully static binary can run in `FROM scratch`.

Not just `FROM scratch` but also in other contexts. For example:

I wrote my own password manager which lives on a USB drive. Since I compiled a static binary, I can execute it on any Linux machine.

Running static binaries in FreeBSD's Linuxulator is easier. The Linuxulator is a separate set of syscalls that get used when you attempt to run a Linux binary, so a static binary will "just work" for the most part (unless the program needs special filesystems like /proc or /sys). A dynamically linked binary means I need to make sure I have any necessary Linux libraries in the proper location and the Linuxulator's `ld` working properly. Updates to these libraries can then make something that used to work, suddenly stop working. Certainly not an insurmountable task, but there's so many fewer places where things can break when you're just running a static binary.

0x457 4 hours ago||
Well, `FROM scratch` implies that if there is something that works with linux syscalls (i.e. Linuxulator) then it generally runs. Unless, like you said, it needs special filesystems.
yjftsjthsd-h 3 hours ago|||
> which was selling people only for people that either don't understand docker layers or can't make Dockerfile correctly.

I don't think that's fair. Alpine-derived images are generally smaller, all things held equal. Of course if you do everything else right then it will matter less, but a proper multistage Dockerfile should still be smaller than the same thing built out of another distro (most of the time).

rjsw 7 hours ago||
NetBSD retains the old ABI as well if anything changes to a syscall.
tonymet 1 hour ago||
I've been using AI with alpine and had tremendous results. fixing legacy bugs, reducing resources, improving performance. with the right supervision, the results are great.

AI can fix a lot of issues that lingered due to lack of time & patience for proper testing and experimentation.

For example, I had VM instances crashing because of a commercial vendor's agents (telemetry, auth etc). AI identified why the crash occurred, and rewrote the buggy vendor agent with a lighter and more resilient agent.

I brought the issue up with the vendor, and they were stuck with their approach for legacy reasons. Fine! we can both operate happily now. I don't have to use their software.

Gualdrapo 6 hours ago||
I so wish Gentoo/BSD still was a thing.
craftkiller 6 hours ago||
One thing I'm cautiously watching is NixBSD. With nix you can trivially compile all your software from source and modify it (both of which I do on the Linux-based NixOS). So I think that would cover the main selling point of Gentoo, though naturally it adds the Nix layer that you may either love or hate. The only reason I haven't dived into it yet is my FreeBSD machines are all foundational parts of my infrastructure so I don't want to take a gamble on such a young project. So for now I just load it up into a virtual machine and poke at it longingly from time to time.

https://github.com/nix-community/nixbsd

ocd 4 hours ago||
I never got the chance to try it, but yeah. I've looked at the Gentoo/FreeBSD and Gentoo/OpenBSD pages a few times just yearning to try them. Portage and all other Gentoo tools being a fairly kernel agnostic toolkit is just the coolest. Even though OpenBSD and NetBSD are in my favorites with Gentoo and Void Linux, I don't think I could ever primarily use anything else unless it had Portage. This rising BSD popularity is welcome news for anyone leaning more UNIX among Linux users.
nanolith 4 hours ago||
Regardless of how you feel about using LLMs or using products that are developed with LLMs, it is a good idea to have an ecosystem of open source projects with differing levels of LLM involvement, including pristine software written entirely by humans.

The pragmatic argument for hard no-LLM projects: if models are to be useful, they need good input. Hand-written software that has been carefully audited is free from the kinds of feedback errors that will eventually weaken LLM code generation. Otherwise, a bad pattern gets copied. In the next generation, this bad pattern is seen a bit more often as stochastic models converge on it and more open source code adopts it. This is reinforced in the next generation and it becomes a common pattern. Then, in the next generation, this pattern is seen all over. This could be inert "non-coding DNA" like weird naming conventions or pointless comments. Or, it could be bad edge cases that become commonly exploitable.

g-b-r 1 hour ago|
Hmm I'm not sure that this project was born out of corcern for the well-being of future LLMs.

This is an argument, anyhow, but it's very far from being the only (pragmatic) one.

mrbn100ful 7 hours ago||
>A small amount of essential software is pinned to the last version which is not tainted. We pin software as a last resort, preferring to find alternatives or move the package into the tainted repository. The current list of pinned software in “base” and “main” is:

>binutils gcc gdb libffi perl xorriso

Good luck replacing those ...

yjftsjthsd-h 3 hours ago|
Well, several of those have reasonable alternatives (e.g. clang). They're just, you know, probably also using AI
proxysna 6 hours ago||
> NetBSD kernel has spotty hardware support

Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Still remember the times when the meme was that the NetBSD was running on absolutely anything.

g58892881 6 hours ago||
yes! "of course it runs netbsd" just checked, it's gone on their website. probably gone for 10 yrs alread, that's roughly when i checked last
phendrenad2 6 hours ago|||
I don't think NetBSD has ever had a reputation for what they mean by "spotty hardware support" here, which is apparently uh... power management on laptops. Their links take you here: https://wiki.netbsd.org/laptops/
1vuio0pswjnm7 1 hour ago||
"Oh, how the mighty have fallen."

This suggests the commenter once thought that NetBSD was mighty

Perhaps he never had such thoughts

If so, then this comment is disingenuous

There is an obvious difference between "hardware (feature) support" and "runs NetBSD"

For example I don't need X11, ACPI, audio or WiFi to "run NetSBD". I want a server not a "desktop"

123ajhz 7 hours ago||
Great website, great AI policy. The two are probably related.
teaearlgraycold 1 hour ago||
> AlpineBSD is an operating system based on the NetBSD kernel with a userspace inspired by Alpine Linux and the objective of making it possible to use as little AI-generated software as possible.

Fucking get over yourself.

proton_9 6 hours ago|
while sitting on a cab a few weeks ago, i was watching other large trucks passing through, and i was wondering about what it would be like if these trucks were entirely made by bots, would travelling on roads feel less safer? when you know that the existing old stuff is made by humans and most humans who are good at their work genuinely put in effort and care in their craft, can we say the same about work generated by clankers? Really got me wondering, still split on if all this AI hype will be a net good in the long run. Sure you're more productive and end up spitting out more code, as long as its non critical SaaS stuff, who cares if things go wrong right? for crucial, mission critical stuff, relying only on AI autonomously, especially when they are still prone to make errors, seems like a very dystopian reality. Just today claude code hallucinated the first name of a person because in the username the first name was one letter.
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