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Posted by ibobev 19 hours ago

LLM Voice(martinfowler.com)
480 points | 254 commentspage 2
blobbers 3 hours ago|
You can be pro AI productivity but anti-AI creativity.

Automating creativity is the death of art.

jader201 3 hours ago|
It could be argued that automating hand-crafted works — aka pretty much anything that is automated — is the death of art.

The typewriter was the beginning of the end of the art of handwriting.

Factories was the beginning of the end of hand-created goods.

AI has killed the art of handwritten code (which itself automated away other forms of art).

waltbosz 15 hours ago||
I currently have a case open with Honda corporate customer support, and I have this suspicion that the email responses I receive are being generated with an LLM directed by a human. Either that, or I'm corresponding with a human who has poor written communication skills. The text grammatically correct, but overly verbose and repetitive. It reminds me of LLM text, but from a model that is several generations behind today's models.

Maybe it's like when you can just tell a picture is AI. You recognize the words you are reading, but to your brain, the way the words are put together feel wrong.

Incidentally, I was reading Harry Potter to my kids last night. While waiting for everyone to arrive, I started reading the previous chapter to those who were present. But I read the sentences backwards while using a vocal inflection of regular narration. My 6-year-old recognized that something was wrong and asked me to "stop reading funny". My 11-year-old recognized that I was reading backwards. The same 6-year-old thinks every silly photo that I show him is AI, while my older children can actually spot the AI.

edot 15 hours ago|
You’re not talking to someone from Japan, are you? If so perhaps they’re using an LLM to translate?
waltbosz 14 hours ago||
I hadn't considered that, but I don't think so. I'm corresponding with someone from American Honda Motor Co., Inc.
thinkingemote 16 hours ago||
It's hard to define and pin point what a "voice" is. Think about how you would describe the difference in voice of Tolstoy vs Dostoevsky, or William Gibson compared to Thomas Pynchon. You might have to read a lot of a writer to be able to notice their voice. You might even notice how a short story by an unknown writer resembles the voice of another.

Or think about reading something that might be stuff you could say in your own words but not actually in your own voice. Or maybe the opposite is a better example for you? That's what some poetry is about. The gap between voice and word.

Stylometry is the study and measurement of text, so that can go some distance to quantifying the difference between voices and can help to programmatically identify a human voice but I feel that because a voice comes from a person, the recognition is also mainly a human response.

At another level its about communication, person to person with the intention and desire to communicate something. LLM text output may seem uncanny as it's hard to emulate the intention and desire and empathy present in genuine human communication.

I would be interested in reading what poets say about LLM voices. I wonder if many LLM labs employ them?

malloryerik 6 hours ago||
Sometimes writing to an LLM seems to make me lazy. "It'll understand," I think and then just leave a thought sloppy, inchoate, even reasoning to myself that it's better to write that way to see what'll be triggered in the LLM. Then I think... uh oh I'm strolling down the primrose path.
Cthulhu_ 19 minutes ago|
This'll likely get worse - LLMs and the tools built around them are getting better at inferring what you need / want.

I had Claude build me a map tool to calculate travel times from one or two points to every street in the city; not only did it do that, it added various scenarios, speed limits, usage of bus lane toggles, different visualizations based on thresholds, and a tool to scan for optimal starting points based on a configurable grid size. etc.

This overcompleteness is a mixed blessing though, in this case it was great and convenient, but if it was e.g. documentation intended for human consumption then it wouldn't be so great, and if it was a letter written to the county that they should consider another location for a fire station it'd actually be pretty ineffective.

aposm 8 hours ago||
This, to me, is the strongest evidence that even with all the money frontier labs are throwing into pushing the boundaries of model training and fine tuning, they still don't actually understand what they're doing & don't have as much control as they want you to believe. If they had any real ability to tune & adjust the model & its output, they would have fixed "LLM voice" by now.

Even if you don't think it's a problem, even if you believe that it's just different than human writing, it seems the majority of "regular" people can tell when something is LLM-written and find it distasteful or unpleasant to read, at best. That alone should be more than enough incentive for frontier labs to train this out of their state-of-the-art models, if only they could. The fact that they haven't suggests that they cannot, despite all the claimed advances in model analysis and "explainability."

BoorishBears 7 hours ago|
It's no mystery: solving LLM voice requires making the model worse at other things they value above all other things
hectdev 15 hours ago||
I think the core functionality of human cooperation boils down to getting ideas from one mind to another or many. In that, I think AI is a boon for people with limiting abilities such as learning disabilities, low language fluency, or generally poor writing skills. It evens the playing field for new and interesting ideas to spread. I can't help feeling, sometimes, this is about people who excelled at something demanding they still have their place at the top. High literacy such that you can discern LLM Voice is quite an accomplishment but blanket dismissal reeks of privilege.

That being said. Yes, I hate some LLM Voice moments too and still sometimes judge people for copy and pasting, expecting others to do the comprehension when it seems they haven't done it themselves.

Duality of man.

triMichael 14 hours ago||
I highly disagree, though I admit I am one of those towards the top of literacy and cognitive skills. I absolutely enjoy when someone uses LLMs to learn. However, I don't think that's what we'll be seeing.

Look at programming. What's happening there is we are having agents produce 10-100x the code to where people give up on reading it and just hit OK. Look at math. Plenty of people there want to learn from the LLMs and all these crazy new math proofs. But those are the people who will probably be out of a job soon because the money in math is in producing proofs, and that's now an LLM-exclusive job.

I think LLMs are weird in that the first order effects are those of an incredible and amazing tool that anyone can learn things from, but the second order effects are going to be the exact opposite - people giving up on bothering with ideas. Even at my job, which is one of the few that has not gone crazy with AI, anytime I ask anyone a question, all I hear is "have you asked Claude?". There's no communication anymore, no pushback, no struggle. I worry that one day we'll look around and realize we've built an entirely separate second civilization of machines and robots that acts more like a neighboring country than a tool we can use to build humanity up.

-Just my rambling thoughts, not refined by an AI.

wrongtrousers 2 hours ago|||
How's life up there towards the top of literacy and cognitive skills?
Terr_ 7 hours ago||||
> uses LLMs to learn

I worry that--while they can be a strong fuzzy search tool-- their teaching ability falters because teaching involves possessing a theory-of-mind for the student and trying to figure out what will change how they think. A good teacher doesn't just present you with relevant facts, they try to figure out how you're reaching conclusions.

Note that I'm excluding propoganda-style "teaching" here, where a model just insists you're wrong and that all the cool kids are doing it etc.

FeteCommuniste 9 hours ago|||
In a contest between the "supercharge my education and skill development" use and "let me be as lazy as possible" use of AI, it should be pretty obvious which will win out at the end of the day.
jeremyjh 12 hours ago||
It is not any different from knowing the difference between good writing and bad. I can't help it that I have taste and preferences. I can avoid telling you yours are wrong. But I don't think this is a minority position and nor is it different from people who reflexively hate AI "art" or music

(I have to admit, I truly do like some of the music, so feel free to scorn me. If you want to be infested with a vicious ear-worm check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zONGVaONKe8&list=RDzONGVaONK...).

hectdev 11 hours ago||
Nothing wrong with having preferences, dismissing people outright based on them is problematic if you're rejecting the ideas because of the medium and method shared.
jeremyjh 10 hours ago||
This has nothing to do with medium or method. It has to do with written words that aren't worth reading, and there is nothing wrong with expressing your opinion when you come across that. If something is really well-written, no one is going to dismiss it for being generated because it won't be possible to notice that it was generated.

A writer who can't recognize LLM voice isn't a good writer, just like a writer who doesn't do research or fact checking isn't good. It has nothing to do with method, its about skill and work effort.

zamalek 7 hours ago||
> uncanny valley of prose

Ah good ol' serendipity. I strongly believe this too, and I think that's why older (less capable) models fared better: they hadn't fallen into the valley yet. Maybe it's not a valley at all, and is just a cliff after which there is uncanny.

When the earliest models launched I was super-excited to no longer have to write pull request descriptions and commit messages. I have done a sharp 180 on that and I'm no longer a meat proxy[1]: instead I point out any redirects and improvements I made the agent do before opening the PR (which there are still _many_ in even the most trivial tasks).

[1]: https://meatproxy.me/

epgui 16 hours ago||
It’s also just… disrespectful to the human reader. Quite plainly.
krupan 6 hours ago||
Remember when ChatGPT first came out and the coolest thing you could do with it was ask it to say something in pirate speak, or in the style of Tolkein, or Obama, or whatever? Maybe that should still be a thing ;)
epihelix 5 hours ago|
Add it to your system or developer prompt, and it still can be.

Given the amount of angst being expressed in this thread about particular LLM-isms, I wonder why people don't simply prompt against the traits they hate. Yes, it will reduce output quality very slightly in some circumstances, but if it really gets your goat like this, surely it's worth it.

thadt 15 hours ago|
Has anyone done any work on what it is that makes LLM Voice hard? Something I've noticed, and have seen other people comment in passing is that reading LLM output is "exhausting". It's often attributed to trying to detect the machine, or filter out BS or word density or some other explanation, but it feels like something more than just that. Like - there is something about LLM output that just doesn't "fit" our minds correctly, even though words are in the right places.

Surely someone with a neuro/psych background has picked this up and developed an evidence-backed explanation.

eproxus 38 minutes ago||
There is this article on this topic, which I found quite interesting: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2610.29162

Compared with human writing, all nine frontier and near-frontier models use more inanimate subjects with animate verbs and more low-frequency n-grams, and most also use longer dependencies, more stacked nouns, and more reduced object relatives in conversation. [...] We propose and test a hypothesis as to why: while human language is optimized for successful communication, AI-generated text is increasingly optimized for other goals like math, code, and reasoning, in which there is a pressure for information density rather than successful communication.

pizzafeelsright 15 hours ago||
I read a lot of old material from 1-1900AD where I can pick upon the author's 'voice'. There are subtle clues, like if they had a regional accent, where they use a specific word or type of cadence.

AI does the same with responses where the cadence is some type of formula that becomes identifiable.

Each of the big models has their own but an example of the cadence is

A) Agreement or Acknowledgement with the User

B) Specific detail gets a paragraph of detail related to the previous response

C) Overview of the conversation's current state

D) Prompting or Direction for this conversation to go

E) Landing on a beat. Wrap up the vibe. Recap with a zinger.

I cannot unsee it and a few of the models are annoying. I have attempted to build out the Agents and context to avoid the 'last beat one liner' without success because after 2-3 more turns, I get "That challenge was accepted and you stepped up. You're the winner this round".

fwip 12 hours ago||
The 'zinger' / prompt might be injected by the harness, and not under control of the model. I am pretty sure this is the case for gemini.google.com - it's glitched a few times for me in such a way that it's revealed special markup right before or surrounding that leading follow-up question.
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