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Posted by ceejayoz 2 hours ago

Schools that block Google’s A.I. will lose student access to its search engine(www.nytimes.com)
https://archive.ph/RuwsB

https://blog.google/products-and-platforms/products/educatio...

126 points | 98 commentspage 2
1970-01-01 1 hour ago|
Studies need to be done on how very terrible, bottom 5% of schools perform with all the extra AI help Google can enable. How could they possibly do worse with it running?
ceejayoz 1 hour ago||
> How could they possibly do worse with it running?

It's almost always possible to do worse.

walt_grata 1 hour ago|||
using AI to tell you the answer means you don't actually know or understand the answer. You know the entire point of education
betterunix2 45 minutes ago|||
There are other ways to use AI in a school setting. Grading homework is a tedious and time-consuming task that would likely be simple for an AI to do.
MetalBreaksAndB 8 minutes ago||
YMMV, but in my school, teachers can access AI while students (mostly) can't. It's possible to allow AI for teachers and not students.
1970-01-01 51 minutes ago||||
That's certainly one outcome. Another is having AI tell you the answer and you understanding why your answer is incorrect. This is not black and white.
JumpCrisscross 5 minutes ago||
The current research outcomes seem pretty black and white.
adrianN 43 minutes ago|||
You can also use AI s an endlessly patient tutor. That could be beneficial.
ceejayoz 29 minutes ago||
The real world seems like it might come as a shock to someone who learned for two decades from an endlessly patient computer.
eesmith 26 minutes ago||
Some of the worst performance schools are cyber charter schools, which often promote the idea that they use AI as a personal tutor.

If they could get better results with off-the-shelf tools, I'm pretty sure they would.

(Not 100% sure. Some non-profit charters pay a for-profit management company, which suggests commercial software, where the charter, management company, and software provider are all owned by the same person. They may prefer to make more money than improve student grades.)

messh 1 hour ago||
How is this not monopolistic behavior?
silverFork 1 hour ago||
Their search engine is now integrated with Ai. So either google would need to block the search engine or the school if they don't want Ai. Take your pick.
ceejayoz 1 hour ago|||
That's the same argument Microsoft made with Internet Explorer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....

silverFork 39 minutes ago||
A lot of these schools use tablets though. The kids probably use their phones so more likely to be google. Higher grades though use laptops I think so more likely Microsoft then. So far internet explorer is not integrated with Ai but microsoft copilot though is 100% ai and can be used for search.
ceejayoz 37 minutes ago||
I'm not talking about Copilot, I'm talking about IE6 back in the 90s, where Microsoft took the "oh woe is us it'll be so hard to undo the deep unnecessary integration we built for this very purpose" tactic.
pmontra 21 minutes ago|||
That happened before some of the readers of this thread were born. A summary for those people, from the fog of distant memories: MS had an Internet Explorer that was not integrated in Windows, it was like any other browser. Then they decided to build it inside Windows. I remember that the Windows desktop got web views like widgets (web view as a name probably did not exist yet) and they called it Active Desktop. I think that it as COM/OLE objects too and the web view was probably one of them. File Explorer itself got an Internet Explorer like skin, probably with single click to navigate directories and open files, as if they were links. Then they claimed that it was impossible to disentangle IE from Windows. That eventually paved the way to the ruling against MS.

When I hear a giant company say that modifying some of its software is impossible I always think about that IE and laugh.

silverFork 29 minutes ago||||
I agree with that view point.. yup
frankharv 26 minutes ago|||
Billy Gates swore on a bible that Internet Explorer could not be removed and lied his ass off.

Profited very handsomely from his lies.

Polizeiposaune 4 minutes ago||||
Their search engine will omit "AI" summaries if you add &udm=14 to the query URL.

I added a custom search engine entry to firefox that does this, made it the default, and haven't seen an AI summary from Google since I did that.

brlewis 1 hour ago|||
Obviously they have at least a back-end search service that isn't tangled up with an LLM. When Gemini says "Searching the web..." it isn't chatbots all the way down. Google just needs to make a human UI for the same search Gemini uses.
silverFork 38 minutes ago||
It depends if you ask it a question or simply specify an object I think.
arctic-true 1 hour ago||
Yeah, I read this and immediately thought “tying arrangement.” But they’re not CHARGING separately for search and AI, so I doubt a tying theory would hold up in court.
brainwad 24 minutes ago||
They do charge for Gemini, if you want pro models.
tikkabhuna 1 hour ago||
It will be interesting to see what search engine students start using. I still use Google because that's what I used at school.
6thbit 1 hour ago|
I think that's the largest shortsightedness of google's choice.

All those kids will get used to whatever other search they can use.

shahbaby 25 minutes ago||
They don't care, they think they're too big to fail.
brainwad 23 minutes ago||
They don't care, they think traditional search is already dead and are trying to jump ship to save the company.
Aboutplants 57 minutes ago||
Oh no! What shall they do?
GolfPopper 48 minutes ago|
Perhaps other big tech companies can also threaten the public with a good time?
tlogan 1 hour ago||
Very interesting approach. Basically, you can no longer use Google Search as a way to discover and learn about a subject the old-school way.

I guess the point here is that Google thinks schools need to start using AI, and that all this "no AI in schools" talk is nonsense.

10111001 1 hour ago||
> Very interesting approach. Basically, you can no longer use Google Search as a way to discover and learn about a subject the old-school way.

If by "interesting" you mean "abusive and coercive."

> I guess the point here is that Google thinks schools need to start using AI, and that all this "no AI in schools" talk is nonsense.

Explain that more please: whose talk is "nonsense"? Google's? Parents'? Schools'?

'Cause it sounds Google is saying this:

> You silly parents and educators, you thought you set educational policy for your students? No, we actually do. Your choices will conform to our business plans of the moment, or we will make your life so painful and difficult that you will "consent" to our demands.

> Did we mention our motto is "don't be evil"? We live our values every day.

swatcoder 47 minutes ago|||
> I guess the point here is that Google thinks schools need to start using AI, and that all this "no AI in schools" talk is nonsense.

More generously, it seems like Google just doesn't see a justification for maintaining an AI-free search platform alongside their AI-integrated vision for search.

For a smaller vendor in a competitive market, this decision wouldn't read like coercion. It would just be a roadmap statement that might draw some customers in and drive some towards competitors. You would expect a business to be able to make that kind of decision (a prima facie reasonable one) about how they'll invest in their products and the support infrastructure that surrounds them.

What this story really exposes is how dependent schools have been made on Google specifically and how the idea of independently making choices against their roadmap feels infeasible. It feels like a monopoly to administrators and the public even if it isn't formally marked as such by regulatory agencies.

That itself is worth more people thinking about.

walt_grata 1 hour ago|||
that is an absolutely repugnant take from anyone at Google (I will not attribute this to a legal entity that cannot think, a human being made this call and is accountable for it). They are not educators and should have absolutely zero say in how schools do things.
andrekandre 16 minutes ago|||
well, they gotta get those kids hooked on ai while they're young you know
watwut 1 hour ago|||
Google thinks that will be more profitable if they force schools to use AI. They do not think "no AI in schools" talk is nonsense, they think "no AI in schools" is bad for their bottom line, somehow.
miltonlost 1 hour ago|||
Google thinks forcing schools to use AI to fuel search will give them great cash. You have far too kind a view on what Google hopes AI will do to schools and not nearly a cynical economic one.
gmueckl 1 hour ago|||
Of course. They have a bridge^W^WAI to sell to you.

This is attempted coercion, plain and simple.

varjag 1 hour ago||
KPIs have to be met
gmueckl 34 minutes ago||
Is it this time of year at Google?
ceejayoz 31 minutes ago||
Isn't it always that time of year at a large corp?
throwitaway222 1 hour ago||
I mean technically I didn't even have Google search when I went to school.
Forgeties79 51 minutes ago||
There are a lot of things we didn’t have when we were younger that are far more necessary today than they were then.
godshatter 50 minutes ago||
Google really is an evil, enshittified company now. I see it every day when I'm on YouTube with an ad-blocker. "Experiencing interruptions?" Yeah, Google, thanks for fucking with me. If you don't want me viewing your videos, don't make them accessible on the standard protocols.

There are a host of other search engines. I use search.brave.com myself (after leta.mullvad.com was decommissioned).

Students will learn about other search engines, and about how corporations are not your friends. Both good lessons to learn.

0c3ca83 1 hour ago||
For responsibile learning, focus on pencil, paper, and books.
Shorel 1 hour ago||
I love old school research using books, however the advantages of connected information cannot be understated.

We could do much better with access to online libraries (which don't exist, apart from the very limited sample from these books accessible using Wikipedia).

Current (blogs and articles and forums) online resources provide information at a rate book search just can't provide.

reaperducer 47 minutes ago||
We put men on the moon with pencil and paper.

Trillions and trillions of dollars of technology later, and the best we can do now is fly by and wave.

mym1990 1 hour ago||
Very narrow minded approach, why not use the tools available? Experimentation is one of the best ways to learn, breaking stuff is a great way to learn. Doesn’t mean that people won’t fall into some traps along the way, but that’s kind of the case with anything.

This is along the lines of “for responsible parenting, never let your kids out of sight”.

ceejayoz 1 hour ago|||
> Experimentation is one of the best ways to learn, breaking stuff is a great way to learn.

Breaking stuff sometimes is a way to learn "don't break that".

Broken children can be tough to fix.

0c3ca83 1 hour ago||||
Yes, doing things by hand is another thing to prioritize.

A good deal of research shows that most learning happens when you recognize and back off from an incorrect solution on your own, without outside guidance. So, the key to a good learning environment is setting up scenarios where the backround information is present, and answers aren't out of reach, but there's a bit of struggle to find them.

This is also how you learn to learn, and develop grit. Grit is one of the best predictors of success.

Technology that gives answers or guides heavily is harmful to the learning process.

walt_grata 1 hour ago||||
Its also an approach backed up by research and studdies. I still cannot believe there are people in education that can maintain that humans under 25 arent done neurologically developing ans have issues managing distractions and that tech in the classroom is a good idea (outside of classes deliberately teaching technology)
watwut 1 hour ago|||
Allowing teachers to experiment somewhat more would be great. It would be motivating for teachers and good for students in the long run.

Centrally forcing schools to do what is good for corporation is not experimentation.

nilamo 1 hour ago||
This is great! Google search has been declining in usefulness so much, that it shouldn't be used by students anyway. And then there's the shitty ai summaries, which students definitely shouldn't have to worry about whether or not it's accurate.
demo4567 1 hour ago||
good riddance. it is useless anyways
MetalBreaksAndB 1 hour ago|
I wonder if schools will manage to filter this. Probably on windows , but I'm less sure on chromebooks.
xhkkffbf 1 hour ago|
The students can just log in with a generic Gmail account using a incognito tab.
MetalBreaksAndB 18 minutes ago|||
The schools thought of that. Every connection (at least on my school laptop) is MITMed.
brainwad 19 minutes ago||||
Then they will get the AI features the school wants blocked.
ceejayoz 1 hour ago|||
That's often blocked on school-provided devices.
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