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Posted by JumpCrisscross 1 day ago

Major Investors Are Skeptical Anthropic IPO Can Achieve $1.5T Valuation(www.wsj.com)
90 points | 108 comments
Octoth0rpe 1 day ago|
What always confuses me about Anthropic is them insisting that they need more compute.

This feels wrong in several ways:

a) they're certainly not addressing their customers like they're compute-limited. One must ask, what would that look like? For one, I think it'd look like a wait list to sign up. It'd look like prices going _higher_, and not lower

b) IIUC, their revenues don't cover their _current_ compute costs. So, let's pretend coreweave magics up a new dc and hands it over to anthropic, which means presumably anthropic needs to start paying for it. How does that affect anthropic's revenue? AFAICT, it just adds costs, it doesn't make their revenue go up.

The only interpretation I can find is if Anthropic is _convinced_ that they need to train faster/harder, and that doing so would somehow significantly shift their TAM or costs, for example by coming up with a model that was simply 10+ years ahead of anyone else that costs the same as opus 5.5 to run, and they instantly nab the entirety of openai's market share. Seems pretty unlikely.

cweld510 1 day ago||
Anthropic’s unit economics are really good, so I don’t think (b) is true. Point (a) may be valid, but they’ve also grown consistently, and even their slower growth rate in Q3 of this year is still very strong. To keep up growth, they likely need to procure compute months ahead of time as well, so it makes sense for them to do this before they are actually limited.
dofm 1 day ago||
Everything we know about Anthropic’s unit economics is still riddled with EBBT. Earnings before bad things.
dofm 1 day ago||
I assume some of this is the escalating cost of training, indeed, and that being faster means abandoning efficiency.

But you’re right. I have often wondered why it is that such a small amount of extra compute (300MW) from SpaceX was entirely enough for them to uncap so many customers.

I think the (in-house) data centre burdens of ever-more complex models may be considerable, but I think the data centre businesses expecting to serve inference tasks are probably heading into a Chinese real estate bubble.

bmurray7jhu 1 day ago||
Gift link

https://www.wsj.com/finance/major-investors-are-skeptical-an...

woeirua 1 day ago||
I don't think people realize just how screwed Anthropic is if their revenue doesn't grow at a crazy rate. They can be incredibly successful and still go bankrupt because of how much compute they are committed to buy. Everything has to go right, and if it doesn't then they go out of business.
dofm 1 day ago|
And even then, the path for investors to ever make their money back is really essentially non-existent. There’s so much “total addressable market” fantasy here.
labrador 1 day ago||
What happens if Anthropic becomes a specialized high intelligence company because they can't afford the build out. Claude would be like an expensive Bloomberg Terminal or an investment letter that offers valuable and expensive intelligence.

I think about this because I pay $100/mo for Fable. How much more would I be willing to pay? I'm not sure yet. It depends on how smart the AI in the future becomes.

mrandish 1 day ago||
> would be like an expensive Bloomberg Terminal or an investment letter that offers valuable and expensive intelligence.

Whether it's Anthropic or not, I think it's inevitable some highly specialized offerings will emerge. I suspect there are already some incredibly sophisticated, hyper-narrow, astronomically expensive models being created for private in-house use.

As an imaginary example, I wouldn't be shocked if some company like Jane Street is secretly investing a billion dollars to create the highly specialized synthetic RLVR data needed to train an AI that gives them an average .08% edge on a certain kind of commodity, equity or asset trade. If so, it's not a leap to imagine another company spending $100M on a model that gives a .008% edge and selling access to 100 high-volume institutional traders for $2M each.

Expanding general purpose LLMs to incorporate increasingly specific use cases has, so far, seemed to be economically viable but I don't see a fundamental reason that must remain true for incredibly narrow yet ultra high-value domains requiring monumental bespoke development, data, etc to profitably exploit.

svieira 1 day ago||
> As an imaginary example, I wouldn't be shocked if some company like Jane Street is secretly investing a billion dollars to create the highly specialized synthetic RLVR data needed to train an AI that gives them an average .08% edge on a certain kind of commodity, equity or asset trade.

The crazy thing is ... it's not imaginary, nor is secret, it's literally a video on YouTube from five months ago - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J-GUnfSqeE (though that facility is only showing of ~$200 million worth of compute).

denverllc 1 day ago|||
Being a specialized firm might work if they didn’t have $700 bn in commitments.

Already they have exclusive deals with trading firms who pay $$$ for faster models and more features. But there are only so many firms who will pay that much (and a lot of companies are pulling back on spend, not increasing it)

byzantinegene 1 day ago|||
and that would still be valued at a fraction of $1T.
dzhiurgis 1 day ago||
As a software engineer I’d be paying thousands if there were no alternatives. As a household - just about everyone pays $100 a month for internet access alone and something like cloude can be easily worth that.

Thing is - regular people have no clue what to do with it since they are locked in ecosystems of apple and google.

anxman 1 day ago||
A $1T valuation would imply OpenAI’s most recent round is already under water.

Everyone has to get capital efficient now — and fast!

ctkhn 1 day ago||
What does that imply about where SpaceX should have been? It feels like we are re running the WeWork IPO except without the investors who said "no way"
timr 1 day ago||
It’s become a reddit meme that this is the WeWork IPO redux, but that’s fairly obviously ridiculous.

WeWork was renting cubicles and calling it technology.

Whatever you think about this market, the LLM technology is real, obviously important, and Anthropic is the market leader. The only similarity is that they’re both famous and well-funded.

crote 1 day ago||
Anthropic is renting GPUs and calling it technology.

Sure, they have some flashy models, harnesses, and tooling around it, but their competition isn't that far behind - and some of that competition is 100% free. Their moat is closer to a puddle, to the point that there are entire companies built around the concept of dynamically routing requests either to them or their competitors.

Anthropic is the market leader in a rapidly-evolving market, where customers can and will jump ship the second a competitor's model looks shinier or cheaper.

timr 1 day ago||
> Anthropic is renting GPUs and calling it technology.

While you can imitate the style of my response by ignoring all of the technical details, you've still ignored all of the details.

WeWork was not a technology company. Anthropic is. You even admit it, but you want to hide your actual argument ("the technology is a commodity") behind an irrelevant rhetorical flourish.

It's fine to argue that Anthropic's business is bad. You don't need to make a ridiculous, unsuitable metaphor on top of it.

danaris 1 day ago||
But "Anthropic is a technology company" isn't enough to claim that their IPO valuation is reasonable.

The problem with WeWork's IPO wasn't that they aren't a tech company. It's that they didn't have a good enough business model.

AFAICT, the only one who cares about whether Anthropic, or WeWork, is a technology company, is you.

timr 1 day ago||
I didn't claim the valuation is reasonable. I said that the comparison with WeWork is ridiculous.

> The problem with WeWork's IPO wasn't that they aren't a tech company. It's that they didn't have a good enough business model.

No, they had a fine business model - there are many other companies using it today (including WeWork). It just wasn't worth a technology company multiple.

(Let's also not forget the mountain of crazy things - such as the founder leasing his own properties to the company at sweetheart rates - in the WeWork S1, that actually torpedoed the offering. Anthropic's listing is nothing like WeWork. Nothing. Not even remotely.)

timr 1 day ago||
And yet, $1T is still insanely high for an IPO. The size of this...inflation...is truly mind-boggling.
imglorp 1 day ago||
Even if it's worth $1.5T, how much can it grow from there? The shareholders will demand growth and then what?
tristanj 1 day ago||
I would not be surprised at all if the US government ends up taking a 10% stake in each of OpenAI and Anthropic.
strange_quark 1 day ago||
After Tuesday no way in hell that’s happening.
MattDamonSpace 1 day ago|||
I would
rudedogg 1 day ago|||
Yeah fuck that. If they fail, they fail.
10111001 1 day ago||
> Yeah fuck that. If they fail, they fail.

Yes. Personally I'd prefer the US government get its stake from a bankruptcy court for pennies on the dollar.

greggsy 1 day ago|||
In the same way they famously invested 10% in Intel, which has proved volatile at best?
ivewonyoung 1 day ago||
They didn't "invest". The Dems gave Intel free money to invest in fabs. The next President said the US public got ripped off by that and got a 10% stake "for free" to try and make up for it.

It was worth $8.9 billion when the US govt got it "for free". It's worth $23B today, even after the big drops recently. How is the US public worse off?

dofm 1 day ago|||
OpenAI are openly suggesting 5%, but my instinct is that this is because they think Trump is foolish enough to demand double that.
dd3ddaa 1 day ago||
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htrp 1 day ago||
They delaying the ipo?
wfwerwerwe 1 day ago||
Odds of coming out this year just dropped from 95% to 70% on polymarket
palijer 1 day ago|||
Which means nothing in terms of likelihood of events happening or not happening.
ares623 1 day ago||
Every picosecond, anything and everything has a 50/50 chance of happening
jdev-hn 1 day ago|||
In no way is this remotely true. Stop.
denverllc 1 day ago||||
What you’re describing is a stochastic process, and that’s not how stochastic processes work at all.
AnimalMuppet 1 day ago|||
Not true. Is the Anthropic IPO happening this picosecond? At 50/50 odds, I'll bet on no. I'll bet on it for the next million picoseconds. How much are you willing to put on yes?
ares623 1 day ago||
I've just been very unlucky in the last 1000000 picoseconds that's all
dofm 1 day ago||
Here I am saying “well, shit”, over and over again, but so quickly that not even dogs can hear it.
Larrikin 1 day ago|||
Odds easily manipulated by those with money aren't useful. When you're playing around for a trillion, a billion isn't much money to lose
CoolestBeans 1 day ago|||
They can but they shouldn't. They have nearly $100b in cash and cash equivalents. But given the massive compute cost commitments, that clock keeps ticking down especially as the private equity and debt markets are closing on them day to day. And delaying sends a signal to the wider market which causes cloud providers and everyone downstream to get repriced lower, making the financial landscape even worse. The question is if Anthropic's situation will look better say three months from now. Given growth slowing and margin compression in Q3, that's a fat if.
dofm 1 day ago||
This is very much aligned with Steve Eisman’s take: that it’s a terrible overvaluation but for Anthropic it is now or never.
jxeyrl 1 day ago||
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LoganDark 1 day ago||
Be a man and just say nuts. No need to self-censor like that on HN.
Terr_ 1 day ago||
Or rather they did need to self-censor, but the scope was the whole comment
LoganDark 1 day ago||
Indeed, hence "like that" :)

Implying something with context is just about as bad as saying it outright, so hunter2-ing your swears doesn't save you as much as dropping it altogether.

Neywiny 1 day ago||
Minor investors. Semi-major. Everybody
dmitrygr 1 day ago|
So is anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together. What does Anthropic have that MyNewAi Co doesn't? Open models are not bad, and anyone can pay google for GPU rent.
mickael-kerjean 1 day ago||
distribution, a foothold in the enterprise, market share, brand recognition, ...
alfalfasprout 1 day ago|||
none of these are moats. And OAI is right on their heels.
jgalt212 1 day ago|||
Microsoft and AWS both have that. They can serve good enough open weights models and own more of the value chain.
epistasis 1 day ago||
They do not have Claude. I use Pi and other harnesses, but it's not the same.

Microsoft has already proven that they do not have the software chops to deliver this. Even if they had the right product managers and UI experts, MS management would torpedo the project and ensure that it gets zero adoption.

And AWS has zero software capability in that regard.

dofm 1 day ago|||
> They do not have Claude. I use Pi and other harnesses, but it's not the same.

This is going to sound tautological but of course it's not the same, because it's different?

Participants in markets make their own choices from the available options, for their own reasons.

Another way to frame my point is this: not the same for whom? You are but one market participant, and it's at least wobbly thinking for any of us to assume that our set of needs is the archetype.

There's any number of harnesses and people have any number of preferences. Sure, overchoice of imperfect substitutes tends to entrench better-resourced, better-resourced (or better-marketed) alternatives, but it's not a slam dunk. Things come out of left field all the time.

(I mean from my own perspective, I like Pi — more than OpenCode. And the "betterness" of Claude or Codex over Pi, or their models over even Muse Glimmer or Qwen, is completely irrelevant to where I am now in terms of the needs I have. So I don't use either of them and I remain unfazed. When my needs change I will revisit, but the theoretical superiority of these products for the majority of users just isn't a factor in my decision, just like I don't care that any tool I use might not be the best for most people. You might think me insane but I'm no less a rational market participant than you.)

ctkhn 1 day ago||||
My employer uses claude hostsed through AWS. I'm sure we could swap it out for Kimi, Deepseek, Qwen etc if needed
surgical_fire 1 day ago||||
> They do not have Claude. I use Pi and other harnesses, but it's not the same.

In many ways, I prefer to use other models through Pi.

They are extremely capable, much cheaper than Claude, and can get the job done for the software development tasks I use AI for. (Quite a lot these days)

ares623 1 day ago|||
Wait, you think Claude is the valuable part of Anthropic and not the models? Claude, built with Typescript? That Claude?
epistasis 1 day ago|||
In the hypothetical world where LLMs have been commoditized and the open weight models are competitive with Claude models, the interface does become the key part!

Despite being awful in so many ways, Microsoft Office continues to dominate. It's a "competitive edge" because is has the trust of corporate customers. There are many competitors, but everybody is used to the main one already, and it's "good enough".

what 1 day ago|||
Claude built by Claude, you mean. It should be trivial to reproduce if you believe the hype.
jxeyrl 1 day ago|||
and how much is gpu rent?
malfist 1 day ago||
Ask anthropic, its right in their balance sheet in the s1
somenameforme 1 day ago|||
And anyone with 3 can also see another trend. The hardware required for inference is rapidly falling. It's all following what happened with text-to-image image gen stuff almost to a t. It started out requiring super computing clusters, and now a days you can do high performance image gen on any plain old computer. I think within a few years we're going to be running frontier level models on a basic mid-range gaming hardware. You can already run quantized frontier level models on $1600 tier cards at high performance.

Seeing this bubble play out in real time is the most surreal thing. It's like watching a train wreck play out at a speed of a few inches per day. Like come on, just get off the track FFS.

dzhiurgis 1 day ago||
Yes and this year is the year of linux on desktop
somenameforme 1 day ago||
Except the plummet has already happened and continues to happen. As mentioned, you can run quantized frontier tier models on cards with a $1600 MSRP. So your comment would be like stating that this year is the year of Linux on desktop if Linux had already gone from 0.01% to 20% marketshare in a few years. At which point that would indeed be quite the reasonable prediction!
jasomill 1 day ago||
You mean the cards with $1,600 MSRP that regularly sell for $7,000+ on eBay?
somenameforme 17 hours ago||
The 4090? Yeah, but the price depends heavily on where you're at. I can buy them locally for around $2k. Even on eBay, I see them going for $3k right now. I don't understand why the market is so extremely inefficient on this, but I assume it has to be related to tariffs, taxes, or something along those lines. In any case even in the US it's clearly trending back towards MSRP and will continue to trend downward as new hardware comes out.

Even at $3k, this is something that was simply impossible without a super-computing cluster just a year or two ago. That's a multiple orders of magnitude drop in price.

davesque 1 day ago||
> anyone can pay google for GPU rent.

Have you tried requesting GPU instances on Gcloud without being associated with a major institution? Yeah, good luck.

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