Top
Best
New

Posted by ChrisArchitect 1 day ago

US FAA says it will phase out floppy disks from air traffic control by 2028(www.reuters.com)
402 points | 324 commentspage 2
MomsAVoxell 1 day ago|
When I was 10 years old, way back in 1980, I got my first 5.25" diskette from the salesman of a COMPUTER AGE shop. He got tired of watching me type in the same old BASIC listings after school and spared me the damage of it by giving me the diskette, on the provision that I let other customers use the demo APPLE II's.

Sitting here now in 2026 I have a box containing almost 3000 3.5" FHD floppy disks.

Each about 1.544 Megabytes, unless you cut the notch.

I literally dumpster dived this resource after being invited in to do so at a local electronics shop closure, some years ago now, on the proviso that I did not leave empty handed.

There are about 12 devices in my living room that can use these things, but I'll never use more than 30.

Some day, I'll see the last one go. That'll be weird.

WalterBright 23 hours ago||
Typing in the code from a listing is one way I inadvertently learned to program.
MomsAVoxell 15 hours ago||
Same. Over and over again. Every time, learning new things. And then trying to port things from one system to another is how I became a disciplined cross-platform systems software developer. And then, when C was kind of new, I bought a compiler instead of drugs and booze, like my peers at the time. Oh, what a world that has wrought!
RetroTechie 1 day ago||
> Some day, I'll see the last one go.

Equally likely: they'll see YOU go. Pape... uhm I mean floppies are patient.

lp92 1 day ago||
>The FAA cited an October 13 event where a fiber optic cable connecting Houston George Bush Intercontinental Airport to the FAA’s network was cut outside an airport gate, leading to the loss of data services between FAA facilities and requiring a ground stop.

Do they seriously not have a backup connection? I would have expected them to have a backup stelite or maybe even a 4G/5G mobile data system in place.

If I can use my phone as a Hotspot when Comcast is doing some service so I can work, I don't understand what idiot designed an airport without backup connections.

Jtsummers 1 day ago||
> Do they seriously not have a backup connection?

That was the backup connection. The primary failed, and concurrently the backup had been severed by a construction crew.

vvilliamperez 1 day ago||
If you don't regularly test your backup, you don't have a backup.
Jtsummers 1 day ago|||
Useful aphorism in general, not terribly applicable in this case. Even if it had been tested regularly, it was cut around the same time the primary failed. Regular testing doesn't stop construction crews from cutting a line.

A more useful comment might have been to say something about the depth of the backup, having only one backup connection not being enough or something.

xenadu02 1 day ago|||
If you are curious: one of the most frequent problems that disables fire sprinklers is maintenance forgetting to turn the water back on. No one notices until it is too late.

No one notices the thousands of times the redundant links works just fine. We only notice when the primary has an outage and a construction crew cuts a fiber line at the same time.

philipwhiuk 10 hours ago||
If you’re relying on your redundant link thousands of times you probably need a third link.
metiscus 1 day ago|||
The primary was being inspected and the secondary failed, there were redundant systems.
ErroneousBosh 1 day ago||
> I don't understand what idiot designed an airport without backup connections.

I have literally spraypainted the pavement and wall - "One fibre goes here, and down on the corner there, the other fibre goes there" - just to ensure a good separation of routes. I want the pinch point to be within the rack that the routers sit in.

I don't get why an airport can't do similar.

80fj0348i 1 day ago||
That airport did have two redundant connections, this was a swiss cheese failure where one was under maintenance and the other was severed by an independent event.
alt227 1 day ago||
> one was under maintenance

So they didnt have a redundant connection. They had 1 live one that was severed.

superxpro12 1 day ago||
they did... it was just singly redundant. they would need double redundancy here. so 3 connections, not 2
alt227 1 day ago||
Taking one connection out for maintenance and leaving only 1 live connection is not redundancy, it is a failed backup.

Redundancy is always having more than one live connection.

charlieyu1 1 day ago||
I’m surprised that they still find floppies to use considering the youngest floppy is now going to high school
flerchin 1 day ago||
I was in a tower last year. They were sequencing aircraft with little loops of paper placed onto a wooden dowel. It can and should be better. Doesn't need to be whiz-bang, but it should not be paper slips and wooden sticks. (and floppy disks)
Aramgutang 1 day ago||
Paper flight progress strips [1] have famously resisted replacement, even though they keep trying [2].

Every 5 years or so, a different publication will write an in-depth story about how difficult they are to replace, because nothing works nearly as well, and the controllers go back to using paper every time a new system is trialed. I think I've even read about them in a cognitive psychology textbook at uni.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_progress_strip

[2] https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/tfdm/efs

xp84 20 hours ago|||
That is really not the worst thing about ATC. Far from it.

I have heard experienced pilots lamenting that we're still using voice on a scratchy radio, with garbled audio and people accidentally talking over other transmissions both being constant problems, for essentially all vital comms.

While I have no problem with keeping that as a fallback, there's zero reason why we shouldn't have, at least for airliners that have two pilots, a text-based communication system. We can still convert the text to speech in the cockpit to keep awareness the same, but we could play overlapping transmissions one after the other. And think of the other advantages. People wouldn't get callsigns wrong, could be alerted specially when their callsign was being talked to...

It's complicated because we will need to cooperate with all countries, but it's not like we don't have ICAO to work within.

einhard 15 hours ago||
We already have some systems in place for this, specifically stuff like ACARS and CPDLC. I suspect the issue is in congested terminal airspace, though; if you have many aicraft talking to an approach controller it is not uncommon to have multiple transmissoins at the same time.

However, approach phases are exactly the same periods when the pilots probably shouldn't be looking at their FMCs and texting. Voice communication is faster, and so is acknowledgement of voice commands, while allowing the pilots to concentrate on more critical controls. For example, in many airports it is possible to get departure clearances and such via text, but take-off clearance and taxi instructions will still be voice over radio.

xp84 2 hours ago||
I think anything we could roll out today would be equally superior whether audio or text mode. Both ought to be available. The important part is instead of enduring the potato audio quality and the zero managing of conflicts, we could have crystal clear audio and, with some kind of a CDMA/packet switched thing, two transmissions sent at the same time could be buffered and play sequentially, and also without too much work, the message “for you” or comms for an emergency aircraft would be prioritized.
rationalist 1 day ago|||
Does it still work when the power goes out? Is it easy to troubleshoot? Not everything needs to be overly-complicated.
flerchin 1 day ago|||
They have backup power at the airport, and no, jetliners are not arriving and departing in the event of a power outage in the tower.
sumtechguy 1 day ago|||
This is nearly the exact reason most 'smart home' systems fail eventually. They become very brittle after the hardware gets 'old'. Where as the dumb tech from the 1950s still 'just works' and costs 1/20th of the smart switch.

In that system you can tell what is going on by looking at in a glance and works with no power. Sometimes simple is a great answer.

However, I can think of one reason the 'no power' argument fails. They do a lot by radio. That needs power. Also you would need to retrain everyone. Oh and you probably would get locked into one company that wants to control the whole software stack and sell tons of support.

WalterBright 23 hours ago||
I have a friend who is a real estate agent for the wealthy. He laughs at the people who automate their homes. The automation inevitably fails, the vendor has disappeared, and the owner is faced with ripping all the wiring out of the walls and replacing it. Usually it gets replaced with conventional wiring.

When my home was built in 1999, I poured over all the home automation systems. I opted for conventional wiring. But I did wire every room (myself) with cat5 cable and RG6 coax, in a star configuration. It has served me very well, no problems at all.

I don't use the RG6 anymore, as my TV service comes over the intertoobs now. The cat5 isn't supposed to work with gigabit equipment, but it works fine. Wifi has improved by leaps and bounds, but I still rely on hardwired ethernet, as it is stupid reliable.

rationalist 22 hours ago||
> I did wire every room (myself) with cat5 cable and RG6 coax

I think the best idea is to install conduit as the house is built, so that outdated wires can be replaced with newer wires by just tying the end of the old wire to the end of the new wire and pulling.

Just be sure to inspect the house as it is being built, because I think one user on HN wrote that conduit was required by law, but when he went to swap the wires, he couldn't pull them - he discovered there was only pipe in the visible terminations, not the whole route.

WalterBright 2 hours ago||
Conduit is indeed a better idea, but it would have been too much work for me. I figured the bases were covered well enough with 4 cables to each destination - 2 cat5 and 2 rg6. The duality was in case one of the cables failed, or got a nail driven through it.
myrandomcomment 21 hours ago|||
So my mother worked at a bank when she was in college. This is the 70s. Later in life she went back to work, in the 90s, at a bank. When the computers went down and they had to close the books on paper and she was the only one that knew how to do it.

There is something to be said for knowing how to deal with critical systems when the automation breaks.

pembrook 21 hours ago||
My grandpa used to be a manual typesetter in the newspaper industry and retired in the 80s.

A few decades later, similar story, he came back to work part time, when desktop publishing was all the rage.

Welp, of course the computers went down.

So they fired up the old hot metal typesetting machines and he manually set all 100,000 words of that Newspaper by hand, and then they went to print using 19th century steam powered print lines.

Except, that story is total bullshit that I made up. Because "the computer went down" is something we can mitigate much easier than doing everything by hand.

Sometimes the old technology actually is objectively worse, inefficient, and obsolete. Like floppy disks, or manually having humans close the books at a bank.

bigfatkitten 23 hours ago|||
Better in what way? They have avoided replacement specifically because they work extremely well and none of the alternatives have been demonstrably better.
ajsnigrutin 1 day ago|||
Those things actually work great, not everything has to be modernized for modernization sake... that's how we get cars with touchscreens instead of buttons and knobs.
tonymet 23 hours ago||
a mechanical (wood, paper , etc) state machine is very resilient and easy to read even from across the room. No electricity demands, no lighting needed. Contains it's own mutual-exclusion (only one person can modify it at any time).

the digital version would require 10+ endpoints with 1000x points of failure.

inquist 6 hours ago||
To be fair light does help with reading paper
jdelman 1 day ago||
I'm not sure I've ever laughed at a headline from a Hacker News post before.
sjia 1 day ago||
I'd like to have some old computer accessories in home office.
WalterBright 23 hours ago|
The problem is the beige plastic cases have all turned into the color of bile.
swiftcoder 1 day ago||
Is it the last of the truly air-gapped federal agencies?
Jtsummers 1 day ago|
No. DOD still has a lot of air-gapped systems, some for legitimate reasons, and many out of momentum or lack of understanding of how networks work.
ungreased0675 21 hours ago||
These are not serious people.
MadrasTh0rn 1 day ago||
If it aint broke don't fix it
jp57 1 day ago|
This is a headline from 1996?
elenchist 16 hours ago|
Welcome to the 2000s. ETA: 2028.
More comments...