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Posted by microtonal 9 hours ago

Dutch 'idealist' bank ASN blocks non-Google Android, including GrapheneOS(github.com)
564 points | 351 commentspage 3
pmdr 6 hours ago|
I was done with Android when I couldn't take screenshots of my Revolut/bank app/other apps. So far, iOS hasn't had a problem with this. Is it less secure, then? No, it was never about security, just control.
astrashe2 6 hours ago||
The EU's push for digital sovereignty will win out over stuff like this in the end. They're going to want a European vetted version of Android. At least if I were European, that's what I'd want.
utopiah 5 hours ago||
Is there a list of banks per country that do not, and never will, require Big Tech devices to do basic actions with a bank account?

Feels like we have enough motivated and skill people to do and maintain that.

birdsongs 1 hour ago||
There is a list maintained by Graphene and community about Graphene OS compatibility:

https://github.com/PrivSec-dev/banking-apps-compat-report

https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa...

pasc1878 5 hours ago|||
Yes you can still use cheques, credit cards, use ATM to get money and see statements. Many still allow phone banking.

You can go to your branch to do many things as well. (OK fewer people do that so there are fewer branches).

utopiah 3 hours ago||
I don't know where you live but a lot of banks do not have physical offices anymore and when they do it is to talk about a large loan, not to do daily operations anymore.
pasc1878 2 hours ago|||
I am in the UK. Yes fewer branches but there is the idea of setting up joint branches in some places where all the high street banks have left.
alala-lala-lon 2 hours ago|||
[dead]
carlosjobim 5 hours ago||
Those would be most banks with physical offices.
utopiah 3 hours ago||
As replied in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50394137 that's not the trend I see, namely less physical offices also.
isoprophlex 8 hours ago||
Dont take the fact that Wero still works for Bunq as an indicator that ASN or any other bank are doing something especially untowards.

Given Bunq's abysmal security track record it probably means they just forgot to enforce some policy that Wero requires on mobile devices - no matter how annoying these "no grapheneOS" policies are in general, of course.

vrganj 8 hours ago||
Yeah for now I use bunq + CurvePay for tap to pay (since Google Pay also doesn't work on Graphene).

Let's see how long they let me keep it.

Muromec 7 hours ago||
I can't take bunq seriously because every time I approve a direct debit I keep seeing two transactions in the log -- one already processed and another still pending and also asking me to enter the pin again after it was approved.

Peak clown computing.

isoprophlex 7 hours ago||
Some ~4 years ago i had the iOS app. It would open without touchid or a passcode. It would execute transfers without a PIN or biometrics.

Leaving your phone unlocked basically meant someone could drain your account.

I reported it, zero response. Bunq, not even once.

Muromec 7 hours ago||
Sounds like a bunq, yes
csdreamer7 5 hours ago||
Two of my credit unions (the only ones I tried) 'stealth block' this by refusing to accept checks I try to take pictures of. It will just refuse to work with a no descriptive error message. These are large credit unions.

One one hand with all the fraud and identity scams I know they have a difficult job. But, on the other, they also rely on sending me txts to login-no proper 2fa like TOTP security codes.

joelhaasnoot 7 hours ago||
ASN was pretty bad - they recently wanted me to renew KYC/ID info. They wanted to install a Chrome Plugin that then would read the government KYC data. I nope'd out of that very fast. The alternative indeed was an app.
whazor 8 hours ago||
I think we really need an open hardware signing authority for open-source roms like GrapheneOS.
drnick1 2 hours ago||
We don't need a signing authority. Those "attestations" are are anti-user security theater. We need to stop requiring apps for everything. The internet was designed to be used in a browser that can run anywhere. 2FA can be done with simple texts or phone calls.
aussieguy1234 8 hours ago|||
GrapheneOS does have their own device attestation sdk
croniev 8 hours ago||
Imagine the outcry. That would go against everything OS stands for, wouldn't it?
whazor 5 hours ago|||
If you are a bank, you want to have an authority that guarantees OS hardware signing of a smart phone.

But this authority could be a bunch of cool people like Letsencrypt, instead of only Google.

Normal_gaussian 5 hours ago|||
OS isn't a co-ordinated movement with a single set of values.
bassie123 7 hours ago||
I'm not in the android rooting / modding scene anymore, but isn't there just a way to install a (Magisk?) module or something to spoof the Safetynet check anymore? I'm not saying that is a great idea, just in my memory theres workaround for this kinda thing.
flexagoon 4 hours ago||
There are two different Safetynet check levels. One (BasicIntegrity) is easily spoofable, bug GrapheneOS already passes that. The other requires Google certification.
breisa 5 hours ago||
Not possible, you have to run a OS signed by Google.
amelius 5 hours ago||
At this point I'm willing to have a second Android phone at home which is controlled by a robotic finger that I connect to from my GrapheneOS phone.
jsiepkes 8 hours ago|
So we had something good in the Netherlands with iDeal, then they had to make it EU global and they messed it up.

For starters there is going to be percentage commission on each payment instead of just a flat fee low price like iDeal has. For some reason they felt compelled to introduce buyer protection like a credit card has, instead of just making it a digital debit payment system. And now we are also forced in to the Google ecosystem.

Great. Just great.

Why do they even feel they need the Google Play integrity API anyway? If you are really so concerned about the kind of attacks that supposedly fixes, you better ban Windows, macOS and Linux desktops and notebooks from banking online. Because their security model doesn't even come close to what Android or iOS has.

flexagoon 4 hours ago||
Wero is an initiative introduced by the banks, not by the EU government. They specifically lobbied to make the "digital euro" initiative much worse so that it doesn't compete with Wero. So it makes sense that Wero has the interests of the banks in mind.
tnolet 7 hours ago|||
I have noticed zero change in using iDeal / Wero since the rebrand.
microtonal 7 hours ago||
iDEAL | Wero was just a rebrand of iDEAL to make people get used to the new name Wero. The actual Wero roll-out has only just started. ASN and Bunq seem to be the first Dutch banks to actually roll out Wero (and not just renaming iDEAL to iDEAL | Wero).
shiandow 4 hours ago|||
ABN Amro also seems to be rolling out changes. I can't tell if it is just front end, but they did break some stuff. Including, annoyingly, making online payments without a phone.

The situation changes every couple of months, can't figure out if they unbroke it already.

jsiepkes 4 hours ago|||
Exactly. We are currently in a transition phase (of about a year iirc) where, for example, the fee will stay fixed. After that it will be a percentage of the total amount. Which is why Mollie announced[1] they would be launching a Wero alternative.

In the end this whole "buyer protection with percentage fee" is about the banks thinking: "We don't want to be a dumb digital sock for people's money. We have to provide value to them". But I want my bank to be a dumb digital sock to put my money in, nothing more. I'm really getting fat-up with all these MBA-types's thinking their company "needs to have a relation with me and add value". I mean I get emails from my utilities trying to get to know me. Seriously? I don't give a wooden nickle about my drinking water supplier. I just want to pay them and use their services and other than that I want to think about them as little as possible.

[1] https://www.accountant.nl/nieuws/2026/10/betaalbedrijf-molli...

bux93 2 hours ago||
From the write-up, it looks like mollie will be using PSD2 Payment Initiation Service (PIS). Which is exactly what PSD2 PIS was meant for. Kudos to them.

Wero is a mess.

Muromec 7 hours ago||
The reasoning goes like that. App is more secure than web because 1. you can share a password but can't share the shared secret generated when the app is bound to account (lol, yes, they believe so) and 2. It has certificate pinning so you can't be mitmed when the system trust store is manipulated

The app however is only secure as long as your system isn't rooted. To make sure it isn't rooted you need to ask somebody who signed the system image if the integrity still holds.

I heard interesting ideas about phones, such as all phones having secure enclave and hsm which the app is totally using, so you can't just lift both the encrypted secret and it's kek from the same filesystem

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