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Posted by BobaFloutist 5 hours ago

It Takes 16 Clicks for a Student to Open a PowerPoint on an iPad(www.reddit.com)
251 points | 127 comments
curriculum 2 hours ago|
My employer (a large university) recently adopted a new parking portal. To pay for parking every morning, I have to open my browser, navigate to a webpage (there is no mobile app), and tap eleven times to pay for parking:

1. Tap "login", taking me to the login page.

2. Tap the "login" button on that page.

3. Sign in using 2FA. (A few more taps, but I'm not counting that against the portal).

4. Tap "Redeem Parking Permit"

5. Tap "Redeem use of Permit Pack"

6. Tap the car that I used that day (which is always the same car)

7. Tap "Confirm"

8. Tap the calendar icon to open the date chooser.

9. Tap on today's date (why isn't this the default?!)

10. Tap "Confirm"

11. Tap "Complete"

After a month or so at being annoyed by all of this unnecessary friction, I had Claude write an iOS app that keeps me logged into the parking portal. Now paying for parking requires just a single tap in my custom app. It also shows me a widget, telling me whether I have already paid or not.

I've built a lot with Claude this year, but that simple tool might be the one that brings me the most happiness.

rapind 2 hours ago|
There's nothing about "pay for parking" that screams "app" to me. This is just a case of no one caring about UX, like at all.
jkestner 1 hour ago|||
Screams "data surveillance" to me. https://www.wsmv.com/2024/12/19/4-class-action-lawsuits-file...
riffraff 13 minutes ago||||
I used easypark to pay for parking in different cities and countries very happily.

It is vastly preferable to "find a parking meter, sort out rules, find a way to pay" which was the previous experience, I'm a bit concerned they look like a sort of monopoly but I'll take that over every city having their own system.

npunt 1 hour ago||||
iOS has App Clips which theoretically are supposed to do this - just tap on NFC, app clip opens up and lets you pay, and sticks around to allow you to re-up while your meter is going.

Agree tho, parking is not a world where we get really good UX developers.

onemoresoop 2 hours ago||||
The app was only necessary as a one click bypass for the original bad UX. Im not the author but would likely develop an automation of sorts for such a pointless daily friction. And it doesn’t really matter what’s bundled as (app, script, etc) as long as it gets compressed/reduced to one click.
hatthew 1 hour ago||
I think GP was responding to "navigate to a webpage (there is no mobile app)"
Kwpolska 2 hours ago|||
An app is more convenient for something you do every day.
tiew9Vii 1 hour ago|||
It’s paying for parking.

It was a solved problem long before smart phones.

Technology is supposed to improve the experience not make it worse.

UqWBcuFx6NV4r 35 minutes ago||
What’s your actual point?
tiew9Vii 13 minutes ago||
There's absolutely no need for an "app" / "website", a phone, and everything that comes with using that choice, i.e. original posters 10 steps, to pay for parking.

The design choices added more friction than walking past a "pay and display" machine.

The design choices added more friction than displaying a monthly/anual pass that you purchase for regular parking at places like universities.

The design choices added more friction than driving through a boom gate with camera recording license plate, and auto charging you on the exit or taking payment at exit.

You now need your phone with you, fully charged, to complete a transaction for what used to be a quick, simple process for at least 50 years.

spider-mario 8 minutes ago||
> There's absolutely no need for an "app" / "website", a phone, and everything that comes with using that choice, i.e. original posters 10 steps, to pay for parking.

Making a proper app for it makes it not take those 10 steps.

> The design choices added more friction than driving through a boom gate with camera recording license plate, and auto charging you on the exit or taking payment at exit.

The one instance of this I have seen used an app to connect your licence plate to your payment method.

> You now need your phone with you, fully charged, to complete a transaction for what used to be a quick, simple process for at least 50 years.

It’s a quick, simple process if you have a phone that is just “not completely discharged”, no need for it to be fully charged.

allannienhuis 1 hour ago|||
why? you can save the website to your home screen and should be able to get the same user experience for launching the thing. everything that happens once inside the app or website is just normal UX design - no reason to do it 'worse' on a website.
hnlmorg 1 hour ago||
> why? you can save the website to your home screen and should be able to get the same user experience for launching the thing.

Except saving that to the Home Screen isn’t the same user experience as downloading an app via an qr code, and you’ll be expecting some pretty technically incompetent people to be using the parking space.

But I do agree with your general point about the UX inside the (web|mobile) app.

allannienhuis 1 hour ago||
the complaint wasn't about the 'discovery and install experience', it was about the UX of paying for parking every day. There are definitely things that the app store experience brings to the table for distribution of apps - trust being the main thing I think. I really don't like the barriers that iOS specifically puts in place for web apps - they're intentionally making it harder than it needs to be, in order to protect their walled garden and the $$ that brings them.
hnlmorg 6 minutes ago||
I was clearly replying to your comment about how “saving a webpage to the home screen is easy”.

Yes it’s easy…if you’re technical. But most people who drive are not good with technology.

throwaway63467 3 hours ago||
Everything feels so cumbersome. I click on a link in some app which takes me to their login which takes me to MSFT login which takes me to the 2FA provider which asks me for a passkey which takes me back to MSFT which asks me whether to remember which takes me back to my app which forgot the redirect on the way which takes me back to the home view from which I navigate back to where I wanted to go where I can finally see what I wanted to see. Surely there must be a better way.
skybrian 15 minutes ago||
Yes, web apps should support passkeys directly and have a "log in with your passkey" button if there's a cookie indicating that you previously logged in with one. Also, don't screw up the UI by then sending you an email or text message with a confirmation code.

(If it's a browser that you haven't used before, perhaps be a little more paranoid.)

stavros 3 hours ago|||
I really hate this bullshit "security". Why on earth do I have to log in every single day? If anything, it gives an attacker more chances to either steal my password, or makes me more likely to be phished because logging in is so automatic now.

It has negative security. Log me in for a fucking month, stop wasting a minute of my time every day!

andyfilms1 2 hours ago|||
It's also crazy that as far as technology has advanced, the concept of the username/password is still so prevalent. Passkeys are sort of changing things, it all still feels decidedly low-tech. Edit: Can you get a Yubikey as an RFID implant? ...asking for a friend.
surgical_fire 2 hours ago|||
What is really crazy is that things that should be just an application locally installed on the device (such as PowerPoint) need a login at all.

There's a secondary issue of schools pushing children to use proprietary applications when perfectly serviceable alternatives exist (especially for school level work).

How the hell we all normalized this crap is maddening.

dprkh 1 hour ago|||
Username/password is the easiest way to log in, assuming there is no stupid format requirements. It's just two strings stored in your password manager. The most retarded way to implement log in is actually magic email link, which requires opening your email client, waiting for the email to arrive, and copying the code. If you want to make it even worse, you can require that to be done using the same browser that is trying to log into the account.
HPsquared 1 hour ago||||
Because everything is sitting out on the public internet now, only protected by those things.
giovannibajo1 3 hours ago|||
Because the alternative is that a very long or unlimited session cookie can be stolen and used for months to impersonate you. That’s the tradeoff
joshuagarner 3 hours ago|||
When was the last time that happened to a Gmail account? It has unlimited cookie sessions.
longcookiesaas 2 hours ago||
I actually did this for my small saas Ive sold to a couple dozen companies, and while all my programming friends at the coworking office said I was crazy, Gmail and facebook were my go to answers. If they can do it safely, I might as well try.
jasonjayr 3 hours ago||||
Then connect the browser directly to the secure element of the device, so the session cookie is cryptographically signed by something you are physically in possession of.
joe5150 3 hours ago||||
Logging and alerting the user that their account is being used from a new context and requiring reauthentication when accessing the account from an unfamiliar IP/user agent would mitigate this to some extent.
gosub100 2 hours ago||||
TPMs / secure enclaves can (in theory) prevent sessions or cookies from being stolen. Not claiming there aren't other attack vectors though.
ktallett 2 hours ago||||
The alternative is offering offline versions of apps to students and allow students to open downloaded items off the cloud locally. It also means students don't require internet access when off campus.
stavros 3 hours ago|||
I'll take that risk, especially since I've basically never heard of a successful attack hinging on a stolen session cookie being used for months. Either you do what you'll do within a few minutes, or you never do.
zdragnar 3 hours ago||
That's a great way for someone to siphon a lot of session tokens and then auction them off to a black hat.

It's also a great way to lose everything if you happen to lose your phone or laptop and it gets found a few hours or a day later and the antagonistic finder guesses your weak PIN.

In the US, service providers and manufacturers are often held liable for losses if they make something that has sub-standard security. Kia, for example, was held liable for making their cars too easy to steal. Banks have boatloads of things they have to do to protect their customers.

It's not really your choice to take the risk here, apparently.

ToucanLoucan 3 hours ago||
I don't remember the last time I had a workday that didn't involve logging into something that I definitely logged into not very long ago, that I use every single day, and it's so, so, so fucking tedious.

And it doesn't escape my notice that all the fucking things I have to log into over and over and over are using Microsoft auth. Which granted, I think every office worker would notice that just from the ubiquity of their software, but still. And, on top of it, Microsoft's login flows are remarkably, consistently clunky. The forms jump all over the place and it has to refresh the page like 5 times as it's processing your credentials, and lord help you if Outlook needed you to sign in and silently opened that stupid auth window, because if you go through the entire thing, odds are great that you'll get a "security token expired, please do it again" message at the end. Like I dunno personally I wouldn't get a security token until the user has actually interacted in some way with the stupid form but what do I know I've only been making software for like 13 fucking years.

Oh yeah, bonus points: I use the passkey thing for my MS Auth app on my phone, and every single goddamned time I sign in, it asks me if I want to.... wait for it... create a passkey.

Edit: Oh oh and, for the above? If you're working through your morning coffee and accidentally click OK instead of cancel, it'll sit there spinning forever, not sign in correctly, and then you get to do ALL THIS BULLSHIT AGAIN.

Just, truly the biggest circus with the most clowns over there.

vrmiguel 1 hour ago|||
Fortunately I don't have to deal with Microsoft professionally, but anything Xbox related is also such a massive pain. More than 3 times now I've tried to login and got into an endless login loop.

If you look that up you'll see that people have been encountering that for over a decade.

I simply and truly don't get it.

Microsoft must have at least 80.000 devs. No one there ever wanted to fix this?

Marsymars 2 hours ago|||
> lord help you if Outlook needed you to sign in and silently opened that stupid auth window, because if you go through the entire thing, odds are great that you'll get a "security token expired, please do it again" message at the end.

Whenever I see the Outlook auth box I mash in some gibberish for my password to immediately get the "expired" notice so that I can enter my real auth info.

So if any admin happens to look, my baseline for incorrect passwords entered is 50%.

temporallobe 25 minutes ago||
Just to get into my development environment, I have to:

1. Log in to OKTA and choose my specific account (we have 2 accounts for some reason, and only one of them is used for development) 2. Log into AWS with that account 3. Select another sub-account in AWS 4. Navigate to my developer EC2 5. Start the instance 6. In VS Code, open a terminal and log in with “aws login —profile myName” 7. Wait for redirect to AWS in the browser window 8. Click ok and close the tab 9. Back in VS Code, open remote explorer and click on a preset that does an ssh tunnel to my workspace on the EC2 10. Wait for VS Code to spawn a new window 11. Now I can go through all of my other development setup tasks (another 6-10 steps depending on what I need to do)

Every day. And our instances force auto-shutdown at 9pm, so if you need to work late, better save your work, log off preemptively, and go through the same process.

Miner49er 4 hours ago||
As a new parent I was surprised that schools have even gotten into a state where iPads or Chromebooks are used regularly in the classroom. I don't understand how kids can learn on them.

iPads especially, they aren't a tool for productive work. Not many people use iPads professionally - they are designed for consuming. If I was in school today I think the distractions they provide would make me a far worse student.

ndr42 3 hours ago||
I see iPads (class 7 to 13, german school system) very positive. Let me just point out 3 aspects:

My students can really work with book or materials (make a photo, then annotate, cut, copy paste, extend the pages ...)

It added a lot to how I teach (make a podcast, produce videos, simulate, ...)

And as parent: I was more than happy when my son had (for the first time) all learning materials together in one place and not scattered in bags, on the bed, in the school locker...

Let me assure you from personal experience that iPads can (used right) contribute to better education.

luqtas 2 hours ago|||
the amount of "better education" we would have with kids driving a desktop/tower running a proper desktop (Linux) is immeasurable better than a locked down system like Appleland - tech literacy is literally one of the most discussed/emergent topics, be at the ed. tech field or traditional discussions about pedagogy

[0] probably over hour 600 on pedagogic scientific research and other podcasts talking exclusively about it

ndr42 1 hour ago|||
I agree with the importance of tech literacy and having a Linux-box could be way to achieve this but I hope you will grant me that its possible that in my subjects (Biology and German language/literature) an iPad is of greater use (as a tool outside, in the lab, to produce something cool with language) than a desktop pc. I don't see them as mutual exclusive.
KellyCriterion 1 hour ago|||
...you know, being "digital native" means today actually being able to use an app on your smartphone and swipe into the correct direction :-D
bluefirebrand 2 hours ago|||
Does any of this lead to better outcomes for the students?
chneu 2 hours ago||
Screens in general tend to produce less desirable outcomes. Learning goes down, retention, attention, etc.

It doesn't just have to be at school. Screens after school affect learning in school.

palata 3 hours ago|||
I have seen tons of university students taking note on their iPad with a pencil. Felt like a legit usage: read the course material on the iPad instead of printing everything, annotate PDFs, take notes.

Back in my days we were printing the slides and annotating (sometimes) them. That was a big waste of paper.

rogerrogerr 3 hours ago|||
Yeah, I used an iPad and an Apple Pencil all through college. Lifesaver, I did all my homework on it and skipped paper completely.

Being able to turn in something handwritten, with whatever diagrams and stuff I want to draw, but also with the ability to quickly erase, move, shrink, etc. handwritten text on the fly removes a ton of friction from the learning process for me.

Jtarii 3 hours ago|||
Fascinating to call printing a few hundred pages a "waste of paper" but buying a $1000 device to act as paper is somehow not a waste.
jrootabega 3 hours ago|||
I believe they are working on other functions for the device. Don't quote me on that.
everdrive 2 hours ago||
They are, but each function takes 16 clicks.
palata 2 hours ago||||
First, I only said that "back then, printing all that stuff seemed like a waste". I didn't say anything about the iPad.

Second, it's not like modern students wouldn't have an iPad or a laptop, is it? It's not exactly a waste if they use a device they have anyway. Probably some even have an iPad instead of a laptop, so...

PaulHoule 2 hours ago|||
I’ve got mixed feelings about the whole thing. I go out as-a-fox to do all sorts of things such as photography and ritual leadership [1] and tarot readings and I always have a “fox-in-a-box” kit for each activity.

Overall I don’t like it that people in ritual spaces are reading off their phones all the time but, hey, I use the compass to figure out where the quarters are though I do try to mark them early on. I still like having books to read tarot and I have a few that fit in my bag but the really good ones (the spiritually oriented ones, not the ones that give answers like “in the basement of the Alamo”) would take up like 1/4 of the volume of my bag and that’s a lot.

So yeah, I may pack a mass market paperback that explains Smith-Waite imagery and a little materialistic book but I am going to fall back to my iPad if I need Rachel Pollock. It doesn’t help that the physical form of books has gotten worse over time, like the 1st edition of The Spiral Dance that was rebound by my Uni library is great but the later edition trade paperback I have reminds me of why I hate trade paperbacks and it doesn’t help that Starhawk’s practical magic got bulked up with a lot of speculation…. So i keep falling back to “get another book for kindle” because i can pack 10k books on my iPad.

[1] with the unusual OKR of “people can’t tell better than chance that this was Paul’s circle”

HomeDeLaPot 3 hours ago|||
I was issued an iPad in high school in like 2014. Even then, they were distracting. We all played games on them. They did have some benefits, though. They ensured that every kid consistently had a small, portable, fairly rugged device to take home so that they could take online quizzes, write essays, do digital homework assignments, do research or reading assignments, scan paper documents, do video assignments, check schedules and announcements, etc., all without requiring parents to spend hundreds of dollars on devices for their kids.
theta_d 3 hours ago|||
Our school district uses Lenovo laptops and Microsoft for everything. My daughter couldn't do her homework yesterday b/c of the Microsoft outage. They use teams for absolutely everything.
fusslo 3 hours ago|||
I'm not a parent and none of my friends are. what's the benefit they're supposed to be providing?

Is it just grading and parental access?

thisislife2 2 hours ago|||
It isn't for learning, it's for spying. Edutech in American schools are very much into surveillance.
ghostpepper 3 hours ago||
All it takes is two decades of relentless lobbying by some of the richest companies in history
phreack 5 hours ago||
I've never heard of "Clever" but it looks like that's the real problem? And some need for a Google integration. So they're making kids use two separate online services just to see a presentation! There is surely a better way, whoever is mandating these platforms has to be being bribed.
asdfasdg12145 4 hours ago||
Clever is garbage. They claim it's free for the school, but end up charging vendors for connecting. So vendors increase their prices, but Clever doesn't allow vendors to say that's why they increased their price or charged an extra fee.
Aurornis 3 hours ago|||
The complaint is entirely about the school's software stack including "Clever" and Canvas:

> login to clever

> click google profile

> type in his long terrible email he is required to remember 32lastnamefirstinital at schoolname.k12.state.us

> type in his equally annoying password

> click canvas

> click log in via google again (because????)

> Click google profile that he already logged into

> click class name

> click modules

> scroll about 40 links until he spots the powerpoint in the sea of other links with similar names

> click download powerpoint

> click open external link to keynote (because the ipad can't run powerpoint)

> turn the ipad vertically to reveal the blue "open" button

> turn off screen lock

> Click open which was not previously visible on the horizontal ipad

> hit play button

> hit present on this device. Take notes.

Educational software is a dumpster fire. The people making the purchasing decisions never have to use the software. It's just sales people tracking down the person with purchasing authority and schmoozing them until the PO comes through.

There are some schools and districts where the IT people take their jobs seriously and actually care about making things work well. Administrators need to close the loop and hold IT accountable for bad experiences and purchase decisions, and they need to drop contracts with services that aren't performing.

This anecdote is what happens when IT doesn't care and administrators never hold anyone accountable.

Calazon 32 minutes ago||
Administrators are the ones making purchasing decisions. IT might make recommendations, but it's someone in administration (or multiple someones) who makes the final decision on what software the district buys for its many students.
kirth_gersen 4 hours ago|||
Glad I skipped out on this by being older. All the kids I know hate Clever and IXL. They are basically curse words to them.
BobaFloutist 4 hours ago||
That's the crazy thing, it looks like Clever is a SSO solution that's making it take much longer to sign in.
TSUTiger 4 hours ago|||
Clever is the portal. It sits behind the Google SSO after you've authenticated. It holds classrooms and links to other things.
jazzyjackson 4 hours ago|||
The idea one needs to log in to anything is pretty absurd in this particular environment

Back in my day we double clicked a ppt on a flash drive, and we liked it!

cellu 37 minutes ago||
The night before delivering my talk I thought it was a good idea to change my slides. After an hour of work I close the deck and go to upload it on the organisers’s platform. “Mh the file size is the same, that’s odd”. PowerPoint on iPad did not save any change.
baud9600 2 hours ago||
Remember when we used to write specs and we said, “the screen will respond to the user in 2 seconds or less”? I often think about that when I’m waiting for a page to load or struggling through some painful login sequence that takes waaaay longer than 2s. This is the truth in an age that talks about usability and accessibility. At the end of our days we will account for all those lost seconds and find we’ve spent weeks waiting for computers to respond. Literally wasted time and no compensation. Sad thought really
chneu 2 hours ago|
Mazda used to have a bunch of guidelines for their customer facing technology. Stuff like the number of interactions to do things, responsiveness, etc.

It was really nice until ~2015 when they threw out that rulebook and went cheap.

vrmiguel 5 hours ago||
Well, that tracks.

I don't try to do any sort of "productive" work on iPhone/iPad because I simply don't know how to. Very simple file operations are often so unnecessarily complicated.

carlmr 4 hours ago||
Exactly why I don't have an iPad. I would like one, but iOS isn't a serious operating system.

Instead of a Macbook with touch, I want an iPad with MacOS, for the situation where I want to watch movies on the go, but also get serious work done every once in a while.

amelius 1 hour ago||
Aren't the new NeoBooks exactly that? A tablet with MacOS (and a keyboard)?
thrixton 49 minutes ago||
No touch or tablet mode unfortunately, otherwise it would be pretty perfect as an educational device.
galad87 4 hours ago|||
It doesn't seem the iPad fault this time. On a normal iPad a tap on a ppt file will open PowerPoint, and that's it.
kevin_nisbet 4 hours ago|||
The one use case I have for an iPad is the pencil for screen sharing / white boarding on zoom, although my chicken scratch writing may not come across well. I don't think it would work for me on a laptop screen either, I need it sitting flat to draw diagrams or overlays.
robrain 4 hours ago|||
Does not track, isn’t true. Click a file in Files or an attachment in email and the relevant app opens. No complication.

The example in this story is to do with other cruft that schools have installed.

awad 4 hours ago|||
Getting a keyboard and touchpad case setup totally changed my view on them for productivity. As a primary driver I'd still opt for a laptop but they work great when traveling.
shantara 4 hours ago||
The price and weight of an iPad with all the accessories is approaching a laptop anyway, while still remaining an inferior alternative. And there’s no guarantee you won’t have to replace a keyboard case after you upgrade an iPad due to intentional physical incompatibility between the models
Shalomboy 5 hours ago||
I remember bashing out papers on my iPod Touch while I rode the bus to school, then emailing them to my student address and printing them out in the library. For a master procrastinator, it felt like the future.
terinjokes 4 hours ago||
I remember doing similar on a Palm TX (with @dmitrygr's patched Graffiti 1.999) and some version of Documents to Go. That was a painful experience in hindsight!
jedberg 1 hour ago||
Security has gotten weird these days. I work for a fairly large (but not yet public) company, so we have would be considered "standard" corp security.

To get to a dashboard, I have to jump through four or five websites for different parts of the auth and security checks (and sometimes provide a biometric check too).

At least in my case my browser mostly jumps through the hoops for me (although I usually have to click at least twice and present my finger).

Shalomboy 5 hours ago|
That's a horrifying read. Our school uses Chromebooks for K-8, but I'm sure there are plenty of iPads floating around pretending to be a proper replacement for a laptop. For the IEP student in question, my goodness this must feel like pulling teeth just to keep up with the class. I don't remember it being this bad on my iPod Touch in high school, but back then was the dawn of iWork for iOS.
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